Covid Vaccine

[Troglodyte]

You clearly don't understand what 'under-reported' means.

The # of people caught speeding by police isn't indicative of the total number of people speeding.

If only 2% of vaccine-suspected deaths/injuries are reported and the numbers are already that bad, imagine how bad they would be if there was mandatory reporting.

Underreported means that some cases are NOT report and therefor unknown. Percentages use KNOWN numerators and denominators. To say something is 98% underreported is one hell of an estimation.

 

[Troglodyte]

So if 2/3 of the excess deaths are "related to Covid," but the nation in question (Australia) has a 96% double-vaccination rate, doesn't that mean that 96% of those "Covid" deaths are related to the vaccine??

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www.health.gov.au

Asking for a friend.

Only in your warped alternative reality.

If a 90 year-old gets the Covid booster in September and goes about his life until December when he gets Covid and dies, it’s a Covid-linked death, not a Covid vaccine death as there is a physiological connection to former and not the later.

 

[Troglodyte]

So if 2/3 of the excess deaths are "related to Covid," but the nation in question (Australia) has a 96% double-vaccination rate, doesn't that mean that 96% of those "Covid" deaths are related to the vaccine??

Loading…

www.health.gov.au

Asking for a friend.

What you and Tim struggle with is that 96% were vaccinated, 96% did not die. 1% (or whatever) died. It’s two different subsets that are also somewhat mutually exclusive.

 

[oneforthebus]

Good information. And I am going to repeat myself here, but the Kaiser study is a bit dated since it covers data up to only July of 2021. My bigger issue, however, is the failure to distinguish excess deaths by age group. I am interested in the data for excess deaths among 18-40 year olds, for example.



This is a study of Covid deaths and shows that those who got the shot die from Covid at a statistically-significant lower rate than those who did not get the shot. I don't dispute that proposition. I don't think TSF does either.

The question - again, for the 20th time - is what do the data show for those under 40 who have already had the Chinese flu? Isn't it true that their morbidity from the Chinese flu (again) is so low that taking the shot no longer makes sense?

I’ve already agreed with the idea that any vaccine risk is too much for someone young and healthy who has already been infected. If these vaccines were actually still effective we’d be having a different debate entirely.
My only dispute is this idea that hundreds of thousands have died from the vaccines. Which is generally based on faulty interpretations of VAERS data, because when hundreds of millions of people get a vaccine in a relatively short period of time, some of them are going to die in some period of time afterwards. That is not evidence that the vaccine caused their deaths. The only way to prove this would be a study that shows a pattern of vaccinated people dying at greater rates than unvaccinated people. I have seen no such study to date. If it exists I’m happy to consider it.

 

[Steeltime]

I’ve already agreed with the idea that any vaccine risk is too much for someone young and healthy who has already been infected. If these vaccines were actually still effective we’d be having a different debate entirely.
My only dispute is this idea that hundreds of thousands have died from the vaccines. Which is generally based on faulty VAERS data, because when hundreds of millions of people get a vaccine in a relatively short period of time, some of them are going to die in some period of time afterwards. That is not evidence that the vaccine caused their deaths. The only way to prove this would be a study that shows a pattern of vaccinated people dying at greater rates than unvaccinated people. I have seen no such study to date. If it exists I’m happy to consider it.

Okay, VAERS reports do not establish causation. You and I can agree on that.

However, I also believe that public entities are guilty of willful ignorance relative to the VAERS reports and genuine research related to the Covid shots. I tried to file a VAERS report on my reaction to the booster. I felt soreness, fatigue following the first shots, said "ehh."

After the booster - and I mean RIGHT after - I had severe hives. I was 60 ******* years old, never had hives in my life, ever. I have zero allergies - NONE. Get the booster, have severe hives that lasted six months.

Tried to go on VAERS and report. Guess what? The VAERS system is very, very restrictive. I need medical authorization to lodge a report. The system is not the "oh, anybody can file anything they want" that some apparently believe. So I was unable to file my report.

How many millions of potential side effects from the jab are just being ignored?

 

[oneforthebus]

Okay, VAERS reports do not establish causation. You and I can agree on that.

However, I also believe that public entities are guilty of willful ignorance relative to the VAERS reports and genuine research related to the Covid shots. I tried to file a VAERS report on my reaction to the booster. I felt soreness, fatigue following the first shots, said "ehh."

After the booster - and I mean RIGHT after - I had severe hives. I was 60 ******* years old, never had hives in my life, ever. I have zero allergies - NONE. Get the booster, have severe hives that lasted six months.

Tried to go on VAERS and report. Guess what? The VAERS system is very, very restrictive. I need medical authorization to lodge a report. The system is not the "oh, anybody can file anything they want" that some apparently believe. So I was unable to file my report.

How many millions of potential side effects from the jab are just being ignored?

Well I would imagine because of the massive wave of misinformation from virulent anti-vaxxers out there, there have had to be some kinds of control instituted, but I don't know, haven't heard that before.

Autoimmune reactions to vaccines in general are not unheard of, makes sense because vaccines work by stimulating an immune response. Hives suck but assuming a vaccine prevents you from being hospitalized and/or dying (again, at this point we know these vaccines are barely effective even at that) I would think some risk of temporary hives would be an acceptable one. Death of course would not be.

 

[Steeltime]

Well I would imagine because of the massive wave of misinformation from virulent anti-vaxxers out there, there have had to be some kinds of control instituted, but I don't know, haven't heard that before.

Autoimmune reactions to vaccines in general are not unheard of, makes sense because vaccines work by stimulating an immune response. Hives suck but assuming a vaccine prevents you from being hospitalized and/or dying (again, at this point we know these vaccines are barely effective even at that) I would think some risk of temporary hives would be an acceptable one. Death of course would not be.

Would I take hives over death? Sure.

Would I take hives for a shot I don't need and that doesn't do what it's supposed to do? No. But I was told I MUST get the booster, the booster will save you, blah, blah.

Would I prefer to get accurate information about the shots from the goddamn people who take trillions of our dollars and run the police and jails? Damn right.

 

[oneforthebus]

Would I take hives over death? Sure.

Would I take hives for a shot I don't need and that doesn't do what it's supposed to do? No. But I was told I MUST get the booster, the booster will save you, blah, blah.

Would I prefer to get accurate information about the shots from the goddamn people who take trillions of our dollars and run the police and jails? Damn right.

I agree with all of that. I have never supported mandates. Our only difference may be some of you seem to think the government intentionally lied to us, I tend to think they were just wrong and didn't know what they didn't know. The vaccines were pretty effectve against the initial strain.

 

[Steeltime]

Only in your warped alternative reality.

If a 90 year-old gets the Covid booster in September and goes about his life until December when he gets Covid and dies, it’s a Covid-linked death, not a Covid vaccine death as there is a physiological connection to former and not the later.

Floggy, stop providing more evidence that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. We get that already.

The point that you so glibly miss is this (based on data you believe is accurate):

2/3 of the excess deaths in Australia are due to Covid.
96% of Australians over the age 16 have had multiple shots.

Please just ******* think about that for a second rather than cutting-and-pasting some dumb **** from your "Masks Should Be Mandatory" Reddit thread.

 

[Steeltime]

I agree with all of that. I have never supported mandates. Our only difference may be some of you seem to think the government intentionally lied to us, I tend to think they were just wrong and didn't know what they didn't know. The vaccines were pretty effectve against the initial strain.

Yeah, you are right on both counts unfortunately. The incidences of the Fed government lying to me vastly outnumber the incidences of them actually telling the truth. Also, the lies are about MASSIVELY important things. Examples:

• We are winning the war in Vietnam.
• We need to start a war in Iraq cuz WMD.
• Russia collusion!
• Covid definitely came from some animal in a wet market.
• No way Covid came from the Chinese Lab of Bat Flus located in the city where the disease originated.
• Cloth masks will protect you.
• Isolating kids is good for them.
• Kids won't suffer from home instruction and oh, teachers get to stay in their PJ's all day!
• The vax has been rigorously tested.
• The vax has been tested.
• The vax will be tested!
• The shot protects you!
• No, the booster protects you!
• Check that, the 2nd booster protects you!

You have a bit more faith in the government than I do. I mean, that's not a bad thing. Also, you and I have pondered and debated several points and it's clear to me that you are pretty open-minded. I understand your trust of the medical experts with the Fed, but undoubtedly, you understand my lack of trust of any word they spew.

 

[Troglodyte]

Floggy, stop providing more evidence that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. We get that already.

The point that you so glibly miss is this (based on data you believe is accurate):

2/3 of the excess deaths in Australia are due to Covid.
96% of Australians over the age 16 have had multiple shots.

Please just ******* think about that for a second rather than cutting-and-pasting some dumb **** from your "Masks Should Be Mandatory" Reddit thread.

Yes, and 20 some million Australians got vaccinated, more than 96% are alive and well. Think about that.

 

[Steeltime]

Yes, and 20 some million Australians got vaccinated, more than 96% are alive and well. Think about that.

So if 4% of the population died of polio or 4% died of smallpox after vaccination, that would be a-okay with you?

Here is what you simply don't get. Without the shot, Covid was killing, what, 0.2% of the population (18 million)? So you are gleeful that a vaccine reduces the death toll from 0.2% to 4%???

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Start with this simple fact Tim. Do you have a credible study with control groups that shows mortality rates greater in vaccinated people than in unvaccinated ones of comparable ages? Because there are literally dozens of studies out there showing the opposite.

You literally side-stepped each question I asked you, then want me to answer yours? There have been several posts covering excess mortality in this thread.

Here's one I posted some time back: https://www.researchgate.net/public...rm_differential_analysis_among_municipalities

• Higher use of Covid mRNA shots correlates with a small but notable increase in all-cause mortality, according to a new paper from a Dutch researcher...
• Like many other European countries with high vaccination rates, the Netherlands has had high all-cause mortality for most of the last year, even with Covid deaths are excluded.
• The paper found a “vaccination-correlated mortality rate” of about 5 percent of total mortality, meaning that 5 percent of deaths were skewed in patterns that reflected vaccination rates.
• A 5 percent increase in deaths would translate into almost 175,000 extra deaths annually in the United States and more in Europe.
  

Here’s one: https://www.kp-scalresearch.org/new...k-of-death-among-covid-19-vaccine-recipients/

Per Steeltime's point, this study published 14 months ago and that data is 18 months old. I'd be highly interested in seeing one covering this year as well. July of 2021 covers 6 months of vaccination roll out? Agreed it's a good study, but I'm not sure it applies today when some are on their 4th and 5th shots. Many of those studied in your study would have only had one dose by that point.

I'll post a dated German study...if you can get over the fact that the results of the study are hosted by Steve Kirsch's site: https://www.skirsch.com/covid/GermanAnalysis.pdf

• The higher the vaccination rate, the higher the excess mortality with a statistical correlation of +.31 (very high)

Another dated study from 2021: http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~norman/papers/inconsistencies_vaccine.pdf

• Our analysis clearly suggests that, when compared to ONS death figures from week 26, all-cause mortality (UMR) for vaccinated people, compared to unvaccinated people, is certainly higher in single dosed individuals and slightly higher in those who are double dosed.

And another: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2798990

Per @Steeltime 's point, this doesn't address the premise of the argument you posed - comparing all cause mortality between the vaccinated/unvaccinated. It just establishes that people with the vaccine die at a lower rate than those without.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Underreported means that some cases are NOT report and therefor unknown. Percentages use KNOWN numerators and denominators. To say something is 98% underreported is one hell of an estimation.

You literally do not get it. This is pointless. Only 2% of all suspected vaccine injuries/deaths are formally documented. If 100% were reported, the absolute number of events in VAERS and other global systems would rise dramatically. By how much would be speculation. To say they would rise massively, substantially, greatly is unarguable.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

That is not evidence that the vaccine caused their deaths. The only way to prove this would be a study that shows a pattern of vaccinated people dying at greater rates than unvaccinated people. I have seen no such study to date. If it exists I’m happy to consider it.

And that is what I and millions of skeptics want to happen. Study the deaths and injuries. The CDC still isn't, from what anyone can tell.

I posted the Israel MoH news. They DID study the reports after sitting on them for a year. Commissioned an outside medical research team to do the study. Their results are captured on video and damning. Then Israel covered it up.

Autopsies are not being done on people who died suspiciously after being vaccinated. I've posted supporting evidence of this.

We all would like these types of studies to be happening. I personally want to know the vaccines 'truly' are safe. My kids have them. My parents have them. My sister has them. My friends have them. I want to believe they are safe having taken them.

I want to be wrong. The data we do have is enough for millions of us to be highly suspect.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

How many millions of potential side effects from the jab are just being ignored?

This is what Floggy fails to grasp when we say suspected vaccine injuries/deaths are vastly under reported.

And therefore, vastly under-investigated.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Well I would imagine because of the massive wave of misinformation from virulent anti-vaxxers out there, there have had to be some kinds of control instituted, but I don't know, haven't heard that before.

From what I've read, VAERS has been that restrictive long before the pandemic.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Yes, and 20 some million Australians got vaccinated, more than 96% are alive and well. Think about that.

The fault with your statement - and it is a glaring fault - is you make the assumption that those 96% would have died if they hadn't received the shots.

 

[Troglodyte]

So if 4% of the population died of polio or 4% died of smallpox after vaccination, that would be a-okay with you?

Here is what you simply don't get. Without the shot, Covid was killing, what, 0.2% of the population (18 million)? So you are gleeful that a vaccine reduces the death toll from 0.2% to 4%???

4% didn’t die of Covid. Some percentage of Australians died (2% or less?) of some cause. You continue to struggle with the notion of subsets being either partly or completely mutually exclusive of each other. Its mathematically possible for the 96% vaccinated to not be among those that died as it’s a much smaller number.

 

[Troglodyte]

The fault with your statement - and it is a glaring fault - is you make the assumption that those 96% would have died if they hadn't received the shots.

Nowhere do I state or imply that.

 

[Steeltime]

4% didn’t die of Covid. Some percentage of Australians died (2% or less?) of some cause. You continue to struggle with the notion of subsets being either partly or completely mutually exclusive of each other. Its mathematically possible for the 96% vaccinated to not be among those that died as it’s a much smaller number.

The article talks about excess deaths, genius.

As in, more than expected; above the norm; an increase over preceding years.

The question is, "What's causing the increased deaths compared to years past?" You fail to grasp even the very question under discussion, Floggy. I previously reamed your laughably-inadequate math abilities (wHat aRe thE oDDs wHeN yOu MulTiPLy 0.6 bY iTsElf FivE TimEs???). Now I have to explain that you don't even understand the question being discussed.

Some have you on ignore. I can see their point.

 

[ZonaBurgh]

Having worked with medicines for 45 years, here are a few, off the top of my head, that are no longer on the market, but there are more.

Mind you, unlike the Covid vaccine, these medications went through the full list of FDA requirements before reaching the public.

Vioxx - your arthritis is cured! Oops, cardiac failure/stroke

Propulsid - no more acid reflux! Can you live with the cardiac arrhythmias?

Raptiva - my psoriasis is gone! And so is my brain

Baycol - steaks are back on the menu! Um, renal failure

Rezulin - my A1C is back to normal! that pesky liver failure

Zantac - heartburn is a thing of the past. it's hip to have cancer

Point being, just because the FDA says it's safe, that's not necessarily true.

Is this vaccine safe? Maybe, but there are enough reports out there telling me that it should be looked into. I do take issue with the "trust me" crowd, saying unequivocally that there is no possibility that these vaccines aren't safe, because history tells otherwise.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

LOL. Really? Someone actually studied this? This is a real research paper that Canadian tax payer dollars contributed to.

If you didn't get the vaccine, you're a bad driver

COVID Vaccine Hesitancy and Risk of a Traffic Crash

Coronavirus disease (COVID) vaccine hesitancy is a reflection of psychology that might also contribute to traffic safety. We tested whether COVID vaccination was associated with the risks of a traffic crash.

www.amjmed.com

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Nowhere do I state or imply that.

That's absolutely inferred in your sentence. "Yes, and 20 some million Australians got vaccinated, more than 96% are alive and well." You list one and only one thing in your sentence claiming 96% are alive and well. By referencing only one thing, you are inferring there's a correlation between 96% living and the vaccine.

On objective statement would be "20 some million Australians got vaccinated, another 10 million have natural immunity, Covid treatments have improved, and more then 96% are alive and well."

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Having worked with medicines for 45 years, here are a few, off the top of my head, that are no longer on the market, but there are more.

Mind you, unlike the Covid vaccine, these medications went through the full list of FDA requirements before reaching the public.

Vioxx - your arthritis is cured! Oops, cardiac failure/stroke

Propulsid - no more acid reflux! Can you live with the cardiac arrhythmias?

Raptiva - my psoriasis is gone! And so is my brain

Baycol - steaks are back on the menu! Um, renal failure

Rezulin - my A1C is back to normal! that pesky liver failure

Zantac - heartburn is a thing of the past. it's hip to have cancer

Point being, just because the FDA says it's safe, that's not necessarily true.

Is this vaccine safe? Maybe, but there are enough reports out there telling me that it should be looked into. I do take issue with the "trust me" crowd, saying unequivocally that there is no possibility that these vaccines aren't safe, because history tells otherwise.

Nominated for the Post of the Thread Award

Re-quoted for emphasis, mirroring the core of my thinking:

Is this vaccine safe? Maybe, but there are enough reports out there telling me that it should be looked into. I do take issue with the "trust me" crowd, saying unequivocally that there is no possibility that these vaccines aren't safe, because history tells otherwise.