Derek Chauvin Trial

[Tibs]

Does it get any clearer than this?

 

[NCSteelerfan]

In all fairness the prosecution will have their experts to back up their case and the defense will have experts that back up theirs. It really will boil down to who the jury believes more when it comes to the experts.

 

[DBS1970]

Yes, that is correct. Per the pulmonologist, medical science proves anyone would have died in the same situation, ie a completely healthy person would have died under the same conditions. The applied pressure forced a gradually decreasing lack of oxygen in the lungs. He was basically slowly suffocated, to the point as if his lungs would have been completely removed. In other words, he was murdered, to use the more colloquial expression.

Yeah no.
You did not watch the Steven Crowder Video I posted yesterday did you?

Floyd did not have petechial hemorrhaging. It’s impossible to be smothered or strangled to death without it.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

Does it get any clearer than this?

Sorry I have to jump in here and say absolute bullshit. He was loaded full of drugs and was already in distress. I am not trying to mitigate what the officer did but this is plainly bullshit testimony.

 

[Superman]

In all fairness the prosecution will have their experts to back up their case and the defense will have experts that back up theirs. It really will boil down to who the jury believes more when it comes to the experts.

are you insane? daft? completely out in left field?

Herr Tibs has made his exalted ruling. GUILTEE.

 

[Badcat]

are you insane? daft? completely out in left field?

Herr Tibs has made his exalted ruling. GUILTEE.

BUT...BUT...DAT DOCTOR SAY HE SUFFERCATED!!! SCIENCE 'N STUFF!!! YOU STOOPID!!

 

[Sarge]

Anyone watch Dr. Tobin's testimony a short while ago, specifying cause of death?

Needless to say, it is spectacularly different than the widespread sentiment - and highly inaccurate accounts - of his cause of death that we've seen in this thread.



View attachment 4963


For those in the back, he explains in plain English that George Floyd died from being suffocated to death by some asshat kneeling on his neck for 10 minutes.

But don't let these pesky facts get in the way. Feel free to get back to the fetanyl/drug use angle, that he died later, that he would have died anyway... you know, all those sound arguments we've been reading about, pages on end.

Sorry to interrupt the heightened level of discourse you've been having on the subject, I'll butt right back out.

I haven’t seen it. Do you have a link to his full testimony? I’d like to see all of it rather than a small sample.

 

[Tibs]

I haven’t seen it. Do you have a link to his full testimony? I’d like to see all of it rather than a small sample.

Sure thing Sarge. Start around the 48:00 min mark

 

[Tibs]

Critical part of the testimony, for all the fentanyl fanboys out there.

 

[Tibs]

"Officer Chauvin's left knee is virtually on the neck (of Mr. George Floyd) for the vast majority of the time....it's more than 90% of the time in my calculation."

Dr. Tobin's testimony, and this digital rendering with the vehicle removed, are critical in clarifying the specific cause of death.

As Dr. Tobin testified today, the action of Chauvin applying pressure with his knees and full body weight on Floyd's back and the neck for a sustained amount of time, with Floyd's hands in cuffs and arms pulled up behind his body, would have killed anyone. Literally anyone.

Pressed down against the asphalt, his air intake being blocked by Chauvin's knee on the back of the neck, Floyd's lungs were gradually unable to pump oxygen in, or carbon dioxide out, and this is the manner in which he was killed.

Dr. Tobin's full testimony is well worth the watch, if you're interested in finding out exactly how and why George Floyd died.

 

[hamster]

In all fairness the prosecution will have their experts to back up their case and the defense will have experts that back up theirs. It really will boil down to who the jury believes more when it comes to the experts.

This. The prosecution brings their experts. The defense brings theirs. This expert who testified today was not the end all of what happened to George Kirby.

 

[Steeltime]

I believe the doctor is disputing the defense argument that Floyd had a heart attack, Tibs. The doctor opines that the act of putting pressure on the neck caused a disruption of blood to the brain - a condition commonly referred to as "liberalism" - and that killed him, not some underlying heart condition.

However, even without reviewing the testimony, I wager the doctor did not address and has no opinion on the Fentanyl causing or contributing to the death. That's what experts do to avoid getting hammered on cross - "I have no opinion on that. That was not part of my analysis."

 

[Tibs]

However, even without reviewing the testimony, I wager the doctor did not address and has no opinion on the Fentanyl causing or contributing to the death. That's what experts do to avoid getting hammered on cross - "I have no opinion on that. That was not part of my analysis."

The exact opposite happened, he answered that point blank. Back to your filing cabinet, counselor, you have work catch up with!

 

[Stainless]

Whatever I saw today seemed to allude that the amount of drugs in his system weren't of great consequence. I would be surprised if the defense doesn't have someone willing to argue the exact opposite, but we shall see.

 

[Steeltime]

Whatever I saw today seemed to allude that the amount of drugs in his system weren't of great consequence. I would be surprised if the defense doesn't have someone willing to argue the exact opposite, but we shall see.

Unpossible. Once one side calls an expert, that's it. No debate allowed. The defense will be allowed to call an expert to say, "Damn, he's got a point there." Nothing more.

And I am shocked - SHOCKED - that the prosecution's expert would support the prosecution's case. Don't think I've ever seen that before. Usually the expert says something like, "Nope, the party who is paying me and called me is totally wrong."

 

[Stainless]

Based upon what little I saw today, and I believe it was Dr. Tobin, the guy was a very compelling witness for the prosecution.

 

[Steelr4evr]

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/fentanyl-treatment/symptoms-associated-with-a-fentanyl-overdose

 

[Steeltime]

Based upon what little I saw today, and I believe it was Dr. Tobin, the guy was a very compelling witness for the prosecution.

That's why the prosecution called him. I know most have not been involved in dozens of trials, I get that, but does anybody think a lawyer would call an expert witness who was poor at testifying or equivocal? The best expert witnesses have testified at trial hundreds of times.

I posit that the defense will call expert witnesses who are experienced and good and testify that the defense's theory is correct.

 

[Tibs]

Based upon what little I saw today, and I believe it was Dr. Tobin, the guy was a very compelling witness for the prosecution.

A beacon of reason in the middle of a foggy sea. Good on ya, Stainless.

 

[Sarge]

So I watched the good doctor’s testimony, and I have to agree, very compelling. As someone above mentioned, the defense will put on compelling witnesses too. Just a matter of who the jury believes, I guess.

I also did some research on fentanyl overdoses, and Floyd may not have overdosed. Floyd had 11 Nanograms of fentanyl in his blood at the time of his death. That is certainly enough to kill a first time user, but apparently a person can build a resistance to the drug over time, and we know Floyd was a habitual user. Also, the autopsy found more norfentanyl (what fentanyl becomes after it is processed by the human body) than fentanyl in his bloodstream. So unless he used right before his encounter with police, it is entirely possible fentanyl isn’t what killed him. On top of that, the amount of meth in his body was described as so low, it likely had no intoxicating effect.

So, like anything, I guess it comes down to what you believe. Personally, I think Chauvin’s actions contributed to Floyd’s death at the very least. And for that, he is likely going to rot in prison for a good long time, and he deserves it. A little compassion for a fellow human being in distress, criminal scum or not, and Chauvin is not in this position. He did it to himself.

 

[NCSteelerfan]

So I watched the good doctor’s testimony, and I have to agree, very compelling. As someone above mentioned, the defense will put on compelling witnesses too. Just a matter of who the jury believes, I guess.

I also did some research on fentanyl overdoses, and Floyd may not have overdosed. Floyd had 11 Nanograms of fentanyl in his blood at the time of his death. That is certainly enough to kill a first time user, but apparently a person can build a resistance to the drug over time, and we know Floyd was a habitual user. Also, the autopsy found more norfentanyl (what fentanyl becomes after it is processed by the human body) than fentanyl in his bloodstream. So unless he used right before his encounter with police, it is entirely possible fentanyl isn’t what killed him. On top of that, the amount of meth in his body was described as so low, it likely had no intoxicating effect.

So, like anything, I guess it comes down to what you believe. Personally, I think Chauvin’s actions contributed to Floyd’s death at the very least. And for that, he is likely going to rot in prison for a good long time, and he deserves it. A little compassion for a fellow human being in distress, criminal scum or not, and Chauvin is not in this position. He did it to himself.

This. Chauvin continued even after Floyd went unconscious. I really can't understand why he was put in that position to begin with. He was already cuffed. There were 4 cops there, 4 full grown men that couldn't handle 1 man that was already cuffed without pinning him down like that? Made no sense, well perhaps it did.......as people like bringing up Floyd's past and drug use they should probably look at Chauvin's past record with many complaints of excessive force used up to and including choke holds.

You are correct, if he had shown just an ounce of humanity and stopped to try and render aid instead of being a complete dick, he might not be in the position he is in now.

 

[Sarge]

I really can't understand why he was put in that position to begin with. He was already cuffed. There were 4 cops there, 4 full grown men that couldn't handle 1 man that was already cuffed without pinning him down like that?

With the crowd that had gathered, I can't imagine they just decided to pin him down like that just to be dicks. I suppose it is possible, but I have my doubts that's what happened. There has to be more. There has to be a video somewhere that shows what happened to get him to that point. All we get to see is the part with Chauvin's knee on the guy. Something led up to it. I'm not saying that such a video should exonerate Chauvin or justify what he did. I'm just curious what happened that the police felt the need to do that.

 

[NCSteelerfan]

With the crowd that had gathered, I can't imagine they just decided to pin him down like that just to be dicks. I suppose it is possible, but I have my doubts that's what happened. There has to be more. There has to be a video somewhere that shows what happened to get him to that point. All we get to see is the part with Chauvin's knee on the guy. Something led up to it. I'm not saying that such a video should exonerate Chauvin or justify what he did. I'm just curious what happened that the police felt the need to do that.

There is video out there showing when they pulled him out and pinned him down. There were people kind of looking when it started, but the crowd didn't start speaking out until after they had him pinned and Floyd was calling out.

Even if there was justification to lay him down like that at the start I can't see any justification for continuing applying pressure on someone who was already cuffed to the point he lost consciousness and even then continued.

 

[Tibs]

This case should take us back to square one when it comes to judging police brutality. It's a pretty simple proposition. Do we stand on the side of good cops or bad cops? If we want to support and protect our decent, honorable, brave police officers we must be able to identify and weed out the bad ones.

Being unable to do so, by minimalizing, sugarcoating the acts of bad cops, you are doing the greatest disservice imaginable.

If your first instinct was to find wiggle room and try to downplay Chauvin's actions in this case, you've got some soul searching to do, and not a little..

That includes those saying 'well, we already called Chauvin an ******* and admit what he did was wrong, but what about Floyd's drug use, his past behaviour, and that maybe, possibly something else killed him?" If you want to talk about the opioid crisis in the States, have at it. But don't muck-up the acts of an overzealous cop, who clearly abused his power, overstepped his bounds and ended up killing a man using brute force in broad daylight. By focusing on the victim here, and amplifying his past transgressions and short-comings, that's exactly what you're doing. Shifting blame and attention away from the crux of the matter.

If you don't understand the real issue here, the reason this brutal act caused such an immediate, massive, organic backlash across the country - and the world - then I'm afraid you have some real issues to work out internally.

If you want to truly support our brave & decent police officers, call a spade a spade and raise your voice against the bad actors.

And for those stating ''but we want to wait to see the facts in this case before making a final determination..' just understand, there is no situation where a subdued, handcuffed man laying face down on the street with his arms handcuffed behind him, with three grown men sitting on his back, would be required to have an officer kneel on the back of his neck for ten ******* minutes, while people are openly begging for him to save this man's life and not kill him. Yet for ten long minutes, the officer doesn't relent, and continues suffocating the man until he takes his last breath. I mean, if you can't grasp that, and are searching for some other truth, some sliver of information that may be floating out there.. I simply don't know what to say to you.

We are not sitting on the jury, none of us will decide the outcome of this trial. But we must answer to our own sense of morality, or lack thereof.

 

[Sarge]

There is video out there showing when they pulled him out and pinned him down. There were people kind of looking when it started, but the crowd didn't start speaking out until after they had him pinned and Floyd was calling out.

Even if there was justification to lay him down like that at the start I can't see any justification for continuing applying pressure on someone who was already cuffed to the point he lost consciousness and even then continued.

Oh I agree. I just haven't seen that video. No call for what Chauvin did.