Elections have consequences

[CharlesDavenport]

The dems bleat about "bipartisanship" when they are the minority, but whenever they have some power, all of sudden elections have consequences. Last time it was Obama after he was elected, now it's Schumer -

The three leaders pointed fingers, raised their voices and interrupted each other repeatedly as they fought over policy and politics.

Schumer lectured Trump that "Elections have consequences, Mr. President."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...order-wall-pelosi-schumer-20181211-story.html

You let these dems go off-script and they will always reveal themselves. They don't like going off-script. Trump welcomes it -

“Let’s call a halt to this,” Pelosi said, pleading off an ongoing discussion.

Schumer also protested that the discussion was taking place in front of the press.

“Let’s debate in private,” he pleaded.

Schumer tod Trump that he did not need a wall to provide border security, citing “experts.” He also taunted Trump for Republicans losing the House of Representatives, reminding him that “elections have consequences.” When Trump reminded Schumer that Republicans added to their majority in the Senate, Schumer sneered, “When the president brags that he won North Dakota and Indiana, we’re in real trouble.”

“This has spiraled downward,” Pelosi concluded, calling the debate “unfortunate.”

“It’s not bad Nancy, it’s called transparency,” Trump replied.

 

[JMM]

I guess Chucky won't be visiting those two states anytime soon. He totally discredited their relevance. Must make the citizens of those states feel all warm and fuzzy knowing how he and his party truly feel about them

 

[Steelr4evr]

They want to hide behind closed doors...hahaha. **** that. Out front and center *******. Speak up loud and clear for ALL to see and hear.

 

[Tibs]

That meeting was a doozy. Trump seemed particularly peeved to be meeting with grown adults willing & able to stand their ground and not let him blabber on endlessly or bully to get his way. I prefer the new wave of Democratic leaders, but for old timers both Pelosi and Schumer were impressive. Too bad the GOP has nobody like this willing to confront Trump face to face.



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[IndySteel]

I guess Chucky won't be visiting those two states anytime soon. He totally discredited their relevance. Must make the citizens of those states feel all warm and fuzzy knowing how he and his party truly feel about them

I already hated that ******, so it doesn’t bother me. I’m glad that it bothers him that he lost Indiana under his watch.

 

[JMM]

The Republicans still have a majority in the House now. I do not understand why they don't just put forth the bill to fund it now and then send it to the Senate. Not sure why it wasn't done a long time ago. I do wonder if all the back and forth is just to raise money and they are just following an agenda/script agreed to behind closed doors.

 

[Tibs]

 

[Spike]

Witch hunts have consequences!


Stormy Daniels ordered to pay President Trump $293,000 in legal fees

The U.S. District Court today ordered Stormy Daniels (real name Stephanie Clifford) to pay President Trump $293,052.33 to reimburse his attorneys’ fees (75% of his total legal bill), plus an additional $1,000 in sanctions to punish Daniels for having filed a meritless lawsuit

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sto...-in-legal-fees

 

[Roy92040]

At least Trump got them to go on record, in front of the whole fricking world, how they stand.

 

[IndySteel]

At least Trump got them to go on record, in front of the whole fricking world, how they stand.

Yup. They don’t give a **** about America or the security of Americans. They know their arguments are insane, that’s why they want to negotiate behind close does. Trump wants the public to see how nuts the lefties are. He won the battle today and he will win the war.

 

[Tibs]

Yup. They don’t give a **** about America or the security of Americans.

That's pure bullshit. Both parties have voted for and supported border security measures over the past few years. Yeah, even Democrats. Why repeat Trump's stupid lies when they're easily disproven? The whole spiel about 'Democrats want open borders!' and 'Democrats want drugs and criminals to pour into the country....' is pure insanity. Nobody wants that, not even Democrats. Trump - and many on this board - might try to vilify them, but Dems aren't that ******* stupid.

The point of contention seems to be wether it's wise to fund Trump's insane, Roman-emperor vision for a Great Wall of Texas, or for a bit less money spread it around for infrastructure, manpower, equipment etc. Any sane person would want their country's borders to be safe and secure. Nobody's arguing against that. It's the how's and why's that need to be decided. I'm 100% for a more thought-through approach than rushing into Trump's nutso building project. If that's the Democrats angle, then I'm behind it. That's what Pelosi & Schumer seem to be pushing for, and might have two-party support for it. Who cares if Trump doesn't get to put his name on a stupid wall, financed by taxpayers. Keep strengthening and improving border security in other ways. Let's hope cooler heads prevail.

 

[Sarge]

That’s pure bullshit. Neither party gives a **** about any of us. Their only lust is power.

And if anyone was interested, truly interested in border security, the border would be secure. Funny how they vote for border security yet never fund it or under fund it.

Now that I think about it, anytime true border security comes up, proposed by Republicans, they are labeled racists and xenophobes by Democrats. Sounds like they are behind it.

 

[IndySteel]

That's pure bullshit.

It’s 100% the truth. Everyone knows they want open borders, criminal illegal aliens and the Dem votes that come from it.

 

[Tibs]

Regarding Trump's vision for a southern border wall, a lot of people point to Hungary and Israel as two places where border walls work. Thank God they built them in the nick of time, disaster averted.

Let's look at that real quick.

Israel's wall runs around 440 miles, built on a budget of $650M. That's $1.4M per mile to enforce the border.

In Hungary, there's never been a border wall, per se. The southern Serbian border was enforced 2-3 years ago with high, steel fencing & barbed wire. Length of southern border fence is 109 miles total. They spent around $1B USD on this (now are demanding the EU to cover half). So cost to taxpayers around $550M. Doing the math, the thrifty Hungarians spent $9M per mile. To put up some border fencing. And we wonder why people have such little faith in their elected officials.

The southern US border is 1,954 miles in length. Israel's wall is 1/4 of that. Hungary's chain link fence would run across roughly 5% of the US border. That's it. Evidently, the fence in Hungary was enough to keep out the hordes of angry, demonic, arab terrorists that were threatening the livelihood of white Christians throughout Europe.

Trump is asking for $5B to cover 'some' or 'most' of the project, depending on the day of the week. At $2.5M per mile, that doesn't seem crazy, relative to what other countries spend.

The problem is, the idea of building a massive, enduring, steel-reinforced concrete wall across 2,000 miles - tall enough, and thick enough - to appease Sir Trump is just silly. The only good reason to do it is to help the US steel and cement industries. That in itself may be good enough reason.

But let's stop calling this a reasonable, practical idea that would deter smugglers, human traffickers, or really anything regarding immigration. Humans are crafty, especially when desperate. They've been building tunnels under the border for years. So you spend a gazillion dollars building some massive wall and those who want to move people - or contraband - will find a way. Again, the border's nearly two thousand miles in length. They'll find a way.

So why not spend money on something smarter and more effective?

 

[hamster]

Build the ****** wall !!!!!!

It all starts there.

 

[Roy92040]

It’s not about the security of this country. It’s all about their hatred for Trump. Now if this country’s national security is compromised, so be it. Collateral damage.


Sent from my iPad using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[Tibs]

Now that I think about it, anytime true border security comes up, proposed by Republicans, they are labeled racists and xenophobes by Democrats. Sounds like they are behind it.

You're looking at a tiny sliver of time, through narrow lenses. If you look back over the past two decades, border security has been anything but neglected. It always helps to look at cold, hard facts and not buy into the flavor of the month, especially the bs that Trump is selling.

The idea that Democrats are somehow lacking when it comes to funding border security is nonsense.

Let's look at the facts. This ïs the picture across the board, covering both Republican and Democrat administration past two decades:

Over the past 24 years, the amount of money spent on border security has increased 14 times; the number of border patrol agents have increased 500 percent; the amount of border wall has grown from 77 miles to 700 miles since 2000; and the number of people being apprehended trying to cross the border have decreased by four-fifths.

It's not continuous and was built in sections to accommodate — or divert — high trafficked border crossings, but the physical barriers already exist.

A steel wall interspersed with double fencing was built along the California border separating Tijuana and San Diego that now extends into the Pacific Ocean.

Arizona has 123 miles of pedestrian fencing and 183 miles of vehicle blockades. Durable "anti-ram" fencing extends six feet under ground and 15 feet into the air to deter tunnel smugglers in Nogales. Texas is also home to 123 miles of a pedestrian fence.

These structures have not only made it difficult for smugglers and immigrants to cross, but it's made it difficult for people who live in border towns who used to cross freely for commerce, school and family.

Every appropriations bill has included money to secure the border. So much so that funding increased from $1.5 billion in 2005 to $2.3 billion in 2007 — eventually increasing to $3.8 billion in the 2015 fiscal year.

In 2013, Congress again tried to pass immigration reform. Again the effort failed. The border security proposals of that so-called “Gang of Eight” bill would have increased dramatically, doubling the number of full-time border patrol agents to more than 38,400. It also would have added to the construction of a physical border, including double fencing. And it would have added to the amount of virtual security like drones and mobile surveillance.

That bill would have set aside a whopping $46.3 billion over ten years to move toward the more militarized border. But with the federal government now spending nearly $4 billion per year on border security, it’s not much less than what the Gang of Eight would have hoped.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/20...-would-add-billions-u-s-spends-border-n640251

These are the facts. The reason why Trump is nothing but a blowhard full of hot air. Prancing around like boy genius that he's figured out we need to strenghten the border, all of the sudden.

We may never have an adult conversation on this. We're going to keep swatting flies, ie putting down clear falsehoods spit out on twitter by Trump and echoed by his base. That's the extent of this debate. The idea that it's Trump - and only Trump - who cares about border security and immigration, is one of the most brutal lies being thrown around.

Here at SN, to nobody's surprise, it's become the norm.

 

[Sarge]

Those are nice graphs and stuff. Yet it isn't enough. Those bills were voted down because of all the nonsense pork in them. If you are serious about funding border security, fund it without including billions in pet projects. If you are serious about border security, your vote in favor shouldn't have to be negotiated or bought. I mean, if we're telling the truth about cold hard facts. And your graph shows that apprehensions actually went down. Some security. It takes more than just throwing money at it. Kinda like public schools, but that's a different topic./

All of the **** we have tried obviously hasn't worked, as illegals continue to flow across the border, sometimes over 1000 a day. So what is wrong with a wall? Why not try it? What is there to lose besides a few million democrat votes? I mean after all, it is about security. I mean, what is $20 billion in a budget of trillions?

Do you remember when Reagan granted amnesty to roughly 11 million illegals, and that border security was supposed to be part of the deal? They voted in favor of it, never funded it. Hasn't been funded to this day. It is why there is a chain link fence down there.

And it doesn't change the fact that Republicans are called racists and xenophobes every time it comes up.

 

[Sarge]

And don't talk about adult conversations when 2/3's of the adults in the room want to negotiate in private. All of this kind of stuff should be out in the open. That way no one can lie.

 

[Tibs]

And your graph shows that apprehensions actually went down.

Indeed. A rather significant fact Trump not only ignores, but states the opposite.

From the 1980s to the mid-2000s, the government reported annually apprehending around 1 million to 1.6 million foreigners who illegally entered the United States at the southwestern border. In 2000 alone, federal agents apprehended between 71,000 and 220,000 migrants each month.

By comparison, monthly border crossings so far this year have ranged from 20,000 to 40,000 people.

The number of people who have been either apprehended or turned away at the southwestern border also has decreased over the past decade.

There are ebbs and flows of course, as we've seen recently, but Trump amplifies it and Fox News sells it like it's a major crisis.

Apprehensions of unaccompanied children and families have surged this year from last spring’s border traffic. But the numbers are less dramatic when compared with before Mr. Trump took office.

Customs and Border Protection apprehended 6,400 unaccompanied children and 9,500 individuals traveling as families this May — up from 1,500 unaccompanied children and 1,600 family members in May 2017.

At the peak of the Central American migrant surge in 2014, Customs and Border Protection reported apprehending 10,600 children and 12,800 families who entered the United States at the southwestern border.

Huge *******, out-of-control crisis, if you listen to Trump and the alt right media. The fact is, taking further steps to address border security, to add to what's already on the ground, should suffice in continuing to bring the numbers down.

The idea Democrats don't want border security or aren't willing to fund and support is a blatant lie.

But Trump adds hair-on-fire hysteria to the equation, to rile up his base. I'd rather they pass realistic and pragmatic border security legislature and funding for southern States to better handle it. But Trump's saliva-spitting, hate and fear-mongering is the way to go, according to his base. Whatever.

 

[DBS1970]

What I learned in the army was that deliberate defense of a prepared obstacle was much more effective than a hasty defense of open terrain. It’s amazing to me that the neo-socialists want us to believe spending a few billion on securing our border is more expensive than paying foreign trespassers multigenerational welfare.

 

[Stewey]

Indeed. A rather significant fact Trump not only ignores, but states the opposite.



The idea Democrats don't want border security or aren't willing to fund and support is a blatant lie.

Oh really?

Keith Ellison is not a democRAT?

This article is from June, regardless don't pretend these ******* democRats have always been on the up and up about their positions on border security.
DemocRATS have now realized thanks to Trump that "it's border security stupid"...but let's be discreet about it so as not to upset you open border snowflakes that vote democRAT.

The links to the polls are provided when you decide to pull your head out of your ***.

https://thehill.com/opinion/immigra...n-borders-wind-up-closing-doors-for-democrats

Harvard Harris poll last month states that a striking 36 percent of Democrats support “basically open borders.” This is an inflammatory policy that is dangerously out of line with mainstream thinking

According to a Gallup poll this month, Americans say immigration is one of the most important issues heading into the elections, with 22 percent citing it as the top problem facing the nation

Even more revealing is the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll this month. It found that 56 percent of Americans see Democratic candidates as out of step with the mainstream, compared with just 42 percent since 2016.

Notably, according to a Quinnipiac poll this month, 60 percent of voters say Democrats in Congress are more interested in “exploiting the nation's immigration issue for political gain,” instead of actually resolving the issue of immigration. Most Americans view the Democratic rhetoric against the Trump administration immigration policies as political grandstanding, and not as a sincere motivation to enact helpful policy.

Congressman Tom Suozzi, a centrist Democrat from New York, was right when he recently lambasted the extremist immigration rhetoric coming from his party.

 

[Sarge]

Indeed. A rather significant fact Trump not only ignores, but states the opposite.



There are ebbs and flows of course, as we've seen recently, but Trump amplifies it and Fox News sells it like it's a major crisis.



Huge *******, out-of-control crisis, if you listen to Trump and the alt right media. The fact is, taking further steps to address border security, to add to what's already on the ground, should suffice in continuing to bring the numbers down.

The idea Democrats don't want border security or aren't willing to fund and support is a blatant lie.

But Trump adds hair-on-fire hysteria to the equation, to rile up his base. I'd rather they pass realistic and pragmatic border security legislature and funding for southern States to better handle it. But Trump's saliva-spitting, hate and fear-mongering is the way to go, according to his base. Whatever.

I'm not talking about Trump. I am talking about border security in general. Much like many problems in society, it the powers that be in government wanted it fixed, it would be fixed. There are votes to be had and money to be raised on issues like this and gun control. I mean, are you really surprised that Roe v. Wade didn't lead to some kind of law? I'm not. Money and votes.


And as far as bringing the numbers of illegal invaders down, this shouldn't be a gradual thing. It needs to stop. There are mechanisms in place to apply for asylum and become a citizen. So it takes a long time to get it. Big deal. If you really want to live legally in America, it should be worth the wait. Reform the system. No shortcuts. Do what it takes to live in America legally rather than sneak in the back door, then demand to reap the benefits of tax payer funded security.

And don't tell me Democrats are serious about border security when Democrat mayors the nation over have declared their cities sanctuary cities in direct violation of federal immigration law. Not only should they not be public servants, they should be charged and tried, especially since we are all really concerned about holding elected officials to account nowadays.

I mean, I simply do not understand the hemming and hawing over border security. This should be a non-partisan issue. It is something everyone should want. But here we are again, another year, another president, a new congress coming and nothing is going to be fixed. Seems we have all seen this movie before.

 

[Stewey]

Regarding Trump's vision for a southern border wall, a lot of people point to Hungary and Israel as two places where border walls work. Thank God they built them in the nick of time, disaster averted.

Let's look at that real quick.

Israel's wall runs around 440 miles, built on a budget of $650M. That's $1.4M per mile to enforce the border.

In Hungary, there's never been a border wall, per se. The southern Serbian border was enforced 2-3 years ago with high, steel fencing & barbed wire. Length of southern border fence is 109 miles total. They spent around $1B USD on this (now are demanding the EU to cover half). So cost to taxpayers around $550M. Doing the math, the thrifty Hungarians spent $9M per mile. To put up some border fencing. And we wonder why people have such little faith in their elected officials.

The southern US border is 1,954 miles in length. Israel's wall is 1/4 of that. Hungary's chain link fence would run across roughly 5% of the US border. That's it. Evidently, the fence in Hungary was enough to keep out the hordes of angry, demonic, arab terrorists that were threatening the livelihood of white Christians throughout Europe.

Trump is asking for $5B to cover 'some' or 'most' of the project, depending on the day of the week. At $2.5M per mile, that doesn't seem crazy, relative to what other countries spend.

The problem is, the idea of building a massive, enduring, steel-reinforced concrete wall across 2,000 miles - tall enough, and thick enough - to appease Sir Trump is just silly. The only good reason to do it is to help the US steel and cement industries. That in itself may be good enough reason.

But let's stop calling this a reasonable, practical idea that would deter smugglers, human traffickers, or really anything regarding immigration. Humans are crafty, especially when desperate. They've been building tunnels under the border for years. So you spend a gazillion dollars building some massive wall and those who want to move people - or contraband - will find a way. Again, the border's nearly two thousand miles in length. They'll find a way.

So why not spend money on something smarter and more effective?

Like what?

The projected cost for the wall is $25 Billion.

On C-SPAN Arizona Republican Rep. Paul Gosar said the cost of illegal immigration is over $100 billion a year...this according to a fact check source is distorted and highly inflated, but offered no actual cost from what I could see.

Ok that's an inflated number, then let's assume illegal immigration costs the U.S. only 1/4 of that, then the Great Wall would pay for itself in a year.

If illegal immigration costs the U.S. only 1/10 of that, then the wall would pay for itself in 2.5 years.

What the ***** wrong with that Tibby?

 

[Steelin]

When my family legally immigrated here you had to have a sponser prepared to help you find housing, furniture, etc. There was no free ride. This has become an anchor around the neck of this country.