Far right-wing terrorist murders two American heroes in Portland

[ark steel]

The irony is that those of you in the US are screaming bloody murder 24/7 about Islamic terrorism, yet choose to completely ignore the threat of far-right violence.

Maybe because the threat of violence from ******** is significantly less than actual violence from actual terrorists? Also, we are not letting you get away with re-define terrorism like you did with "mass shootings". What do you call the gang violence in Chicago and LA. Is that domestic terrorism or not, since it doesn't fit your agenda and not being carried out by people in MAGA hats. Or, you know, those far-right wing Bernie voters?

 

[Tibs]

ark steel, all I'm trying to say is that a whole lot of you seem to be pretending - or worse, purposefully obfuscating - a real issue as if it's some made-up fairy tale. Really, every time I log on here and read this board I feel like I'm in some sort of parallel universe. It's like a Jonestown kind of vibe, where you're all in some wierd, secret cult propagating fiction as fact.

Right-Wing Extremists Are a Bigger Threat to America Than ISIS
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/...ger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html

They and untold thousands like them are the extremists who hide among us, the right-wing militants who, since 2002, have killed more people in the United States than jihadis have. In that time, according to New America, a Washington think tank, Islamists launched nine attacks that murdered 45, while the right-wing extremists struck 18 times, leaving 48 dead. These Americans thrive on hate and conspiracy theories, many fed to them by politicians and commentators who blithely blather about government concentration camps and impending martial law and plans to seize guns and other dystopian gibberish, apparently unaware there are people listening who don’t know it’s all lies. These extremists turn to violence—against minorities, non-Christians, abortion providers, government officials—in what they believe is a fight to save America. And that potential for violence is escalating every day.

White Americans Are The Biggest Terror Threat In The United States
http://www.mintpressnews.com/white-...st-terror-threat-in-the-united-states/211608/

Almost twice as many people have died in attacks by right-wing groups in America than have died in attacks by Muslim extremists.

Christian terrorism is a bigger threat to U.S. freedom than Islamic extremism
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthr...threat-to-u-s-freedom-than-islamic-extremism/

Since September 11, 2001, there have been at least 13 attacks against abortion clinics in the US by Christian terrorists, while only 5 attacks linked to Islamic extremism.

While all violence is bad and this is not a contest about who is worse, it certainly shows us who is a bigger threat to the U.S. and it is certainly not Islam. It is the religion living right under our noses.

Are white male terrorists a bigger threat to Americans than Islamic extremists?
https://thetylt.com/politics/are-wh...r-threat-to-americans-than-islamic-extremists

 

[Troglodyte]

Oh lookie here....1159 people, mostly Islamic, killed by Islamic terrorists in the last 30 days

One slight change for perspective.

 

[IndySteel]

He's gone full retard. The boy is lost and there's no coming back to reality. It's a shame. Well, not really.

 

[Tibs]

He's gone full retard. The boy is lost and there's no coming back to reality. It's a shame. Well, not really.

Keep drinking the Trump® kool-aid Indy, it's all gonna end well, rest assured.

 

[ark steel]

Ok. Clicked on one link, mistakenly, thinking there would be some back up. The link evendors notes that, at the time, not much was known about the shooter, but that doesn't stop the writer from continuing.

That attack cited in the article:
Friday afternoon, at a Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs, Colorado, a gunman walked into the medical facility and opened fire. At least 11 people are injured, including reports of a police officer responding to the call being killed.

11 injured, 1 killed. Sounds < san bernadino or orlando.

 

[IndySteel]

Keep drinking the Trump® kool-aid Indy, it's all gonna end well, rest assured.

It's not Trump's Kool-Aid, it's our (true, sane Americans) Kool-aid that we've been thirsting for for decades. Trump is just serving it.

 

[ark steel]

And...while quoting scripture and saying he was religious, the CO attacker was declared incompetent to stand trial.

 

[oneforthebus]

There are some white guys, some white Christian guys, some right wing right Christian guys, who do bad things. It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things, but yes, it's bad that they do bad things.

What on ******* earth does that have to do with a global well-organized well-funded violent jihadist movement with hundreds of thousands of members, which has as its goal world domination of Islam? Absolutely nothing. It's like looking at the Nazis and saying, well yeah, but David Berkowitz was a serial killer so American Jews are just as bad as the Nazis.

It's nonsensical and you know it.

 

[IndySteel]

M-15 has discovered over 23,000 jihadists in the UK. That's why they're on high alert now and it's what happens when you do not speak out against radical Islamic terrorism. Now they're ******.

 

[Tibs]

There are some white guys, some white Christian guys, some right wing right Christian guys, who do bad things. It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things, but yes, it's bad that they do bad things. What on ******* earth does that have to do with a global well-organized well-funded violent jihadist movement with hundreds of thousands of members, which has as its goal world domination of Islam? Absolutely nothing. It's like looking at the Nazis and saying, well yeah, but David Berkowitz was a serial killer so American Jews are just as bad as the Nazis. It's nonsensical and you know it.

Then explain this, thanks.

Almost twice as many people have died in attacks by right-wing groups in America than have died in attacks by Muslim extremists.

 

[Troglodyte]

There are some white guys, some white Christian guys, some right wing right Christian guys, who do bad things. It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things, but yes, it's bad that they do bad things.

What on ******* earth does that have to do with a global well-organized well-funded violent jihadist movement with hundreds of thousands of members, which has as its goal world domination of Islam? Absolutely nothing. It's like looking at the Nazis and saying, well yeah, but David Berkowitz was a serial killer so American Jews are just as bad as the Nazis.

It's nonsensical and you know it.

I'm in Pittsburgh. There have been a couple mass shootings here... by white men: LA Fitness, Western Psych. Most of the other US mass shootings were also white men. Consider the number of them in the past 15 years and it's not such a small number. Compare that to post-9/11 US radical Islamic terrorism and put that in perspective. The common denominator in one is white male gun owners (of which I am one), the common denominator in the other is religion. You guys are quick to warn against making generalizations when it involves white men and second amendment rights, not so much when it involves muslims and first amendment rights. That, to me, is nonsensical.

 

[oneforthebus]

Then explain this, thanks.

Almost twice as many people have died in attacks by right-wing groups in America than have died in attacks by Muslim extremists.

I'll explain that when you show me the source and the actual facts on which that claim is based. Thanks.

Twice as many people since when? And why are you only focused on attacks on Americans? Don't you give a **** about the rest of the world? And why don't you acknowledge that whatever you classify as "right wing groups" is really just a collection of a few random wingnuts, there is no right wing American "group" that has the money, arms, organization, and number of followers that most major jihadist groups do. Can you name one that even comes close to ISIL or Al Quaeda or Boko Haram in the threat that it represents to the world's security?

Please stop making yourself look foolish. You know as well as I do that just one of these groups is more dangerous and deadly than every American "right wing terrorist group" (if that even exists) combined.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/new-america-study-2015.aspx

 

[oneforthebus]

I'm in Pittsburgh. There have been a couple mass shootings here... by white men: LA Fitness, Western Psych. Most of the other US mass shootings were also white men. Consider the number of them in the past 15 years and it's not such a small number. Compare that to post-9/11 US radical Islamic terrorism and put that in perspective. The common denominator in one is white male gun owners (of which I am one), the common denominator in the other is religion. You guys are quick to warn against making generalizations when it involves white men and second amendment rights, not so much when it involves muslims and first amendment rights. That, to me, is nonsensical.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you denying that radical Islam exists and that there are lots of terrorists globally motivated by it? Are you suggesting that male white mass shooters are mostly motivated by their whiteness? Are they all right wing Christians? What? Another apples and oranges comparison. Look at most of these mass shootings and they can pretty much be traced to a definable mental illness, not a global religious or political based movement. That doesn't make them any better of course, but to use them to attempt to diminish the threat of global jihadism is of course, ridicuolous. Again, it's like diminishing Nazism by pointing out that David Berkowitz was Jewish. There have always been random nutjobs of every race and creed and there always will be.

 

[Tibs]

I'll explain that when you show me the source and the actual facts on which that claim is based. Thanks.

It doesn't bother me one bit how you - and many others - want to ignore the facts. That's your choice, I'm sure you have your reasons.

It's not my job to constantly research easily obtainable information on your behalf. You could for instance, easily find this on the FBI's official site:

Domestic Terrorism

Domestic right-wing terrorist groups often adhere to the principles of racial supremacy and embrace antigovernment, antiregulatory beliefs. Generally, extremist right-wing groups engage in activity that is protected by constitutional guarantees of free speech and assembly. Law enforcement becomes involved when the volatile talk of these groups transgresses into unlawful action.

On the national level, formal right-wing hate groups, such as the National Alliance, the World Church of the Creator (WCOTC) and the Aryan Nations, represent a continuing terrorist threat. Although efforts have been made by some extremist groups to reduce openly racist rhetoric in order to appeal to a broader segment of the population and to focus increased attention on antigovernment sentiment, racism-based hatred remains an integral component of these groups’ core orientations.

Right-wing groups continue to represent a serious terrorist threat. Two of the seven planned acts of terrorism prevented in 1999 were potentially large-scale, high-casualty attacks being planned by organized right-wing extremist groups.

Or you can easily find information such as this:

But more importantly, foreigners pose less of a threat to Americans than right-wing extremists on domestic soil.In a 2015 New York Times article, University of North Carolina Professor Charles Kurzman and Duke Professor David Schanzer found that Islam-inspired terror attacks accounted for 50 deaths since 9/11, but that “right-wing extremists averaged 337 attacks per year in the decade after 9/11, causing a total of 254 fatalities.”

If you don't like the source - which I'm sure you don't - then go read the actual research, see their methodology and corresponding data.

I presume you dismiss out-of-hand the reports from the Anti-Defamation League. That's your choice, but that doesn't diminish their findings compiled through decades of research and investigation.

A Dark and Constant Rage: 25 Years of Right-Wing Terrorism in the United States
https://www.adl.org/education/resou...5-years-of-right-wing-terrorism-in-the-united

All in all there is an overriding tendency on this board to attack posters and sources of information that you find disagreeable. That's a cop-out. From some, like IndySteel, I'd expect nothing less. From others, those with more of an open mind and less fanatical in their views, you'd think these discussions would bring with it an honest assesment of what the realities are. For whatever reason, it must help you and others to continue ignoring this type of threat, pretending it doesn't exist or simply wishing it away. It may make you sleep easier and feel more comfortable in your own skin. But that doesn't mean these threats aren't real. In fact, right wing extremism is a clearly growing problem under Trump. Ignore it at your own peril.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Let's try this on for size. These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

1. Worldwide terrorism is a real threat, particularly that which is propagated by ISIS/ISIL/Al Qaeda.
2. Far-right, white supremicist terrorism is a real threat in the US, as propagated by far-right individuals and groups.

What you consider false equivalency is actually just common knowledge. Far right terrorism is a much larger threat domestically in the US than so-called Islamic terrorism. The numbers bear that out. Worldwide, particularly in Europe and the Middle East, the threat from ISIS-affiliated groups is much greater.

The irony is that those of you in the US are screaming bloody murder 24/7 about Islamic terrorism, yet choose to completely ignore the threat of far-right violence. Probably because few of you are muslims or minorities, so it doesn't fit into your world view. And consequently, that's why it doesn't upset you when Trump takes fighting domestic, far-right terrorism off the table without batting an eye.

The aforementioned contortions continue.

 

[Troglodyte]

Look at most of these mass shootings and they can pretty much be traced to a definable mental illness, not a global religious or political based movement. That doesn't make them any better of course, but to use them to attempt to diminish the threat of global jihadism is of course, ridicuolous.

Threat or hysteria? If I, or you for that matter, are to put these threats in there proper perspective, why is jihadism the one that should take precedent? Based on proximity and recent experience, if I'm to feel threatened by jihadism, I should feel much more threatened by random mass shootings. FWIW, I'm not particularly threatened by either. I worry more about things like a dump truck driver becoming distracted or incapacitated as I'm driving in the other lane. Statistics, ya know...

 

[oneforthebus]

It doesn't bother me one bit how you - and many others - want to ignore the facts. That's your choice, I'm sure you have your reasons.

It's not my job to constantly research easily obtainable information on your behalf. You could for instance, easily find this on the FBI's official site:



Or you can easily find information such as this:



If you don't like the source - which I'm sure you don't - then go read the actual research, see their methodology and corresponding data.

I presume you dismiss out-of-hand the reports from the Anti-Defamation League. That's your choice, but that doesn't diminish their findings compiled through decades of research and investigation.

A Dark and Constant Rage: 25 Years of Right-Wing Terrorism in the United States
https://www.adl.org/education/resou...5-years-of-right-wing-terrorism-in-the-united

All in all there is an overriding tendency on this board to attack posters and sources of information that you find disagreeable. That's a cop-out. From some, like IndySteel, I'd expect nothing less. From others, those with more of an open mind and less fanatical in their views, you'd think these discussions would bring with it an honest assesment of what the realities are. For whatever reason, it must help you and others to continue ignoring this type of threat, pretending it doesn't exist or simply wishing it away. It may make you sleep easier and feel more comfortable in your own skin. But that doesn't mean these threats aren't real. In fact, right wing extremism is a clearly growing problem under Trump. Ignore it at your own peril.

Every single one of these stats only counts attacks "since 9/11". So we're just going to forget about the 3000 people killed by jihadists that day so we can make the stats come out the way you want them to? Oh, oops they don't count Pulse nightclub either. And how many large scale terrorist attacks have been thwarted? Why do none of your stats quote that?

Nobody says there is no danger from white American radical groups (I'm not going to call them "right wing" because that's a misnomer). We can and should hunt them out and thwart their plans. We don't have to pretend that they have the same kind of reach, organization, funding, weapons and sheer numbers that radical Islamists have to do that.

Why are you so desperately attempting to use them to diminish radical Islamism? That's the weird thing. Are you so obsessed with trying to make conservatives look like evil racists that you're willing to risk people's lives to do it? You really want us to shift our focus away from radical Islamists and more towards American right wing radicals? You really and truly believe that's the wise course of action?

Come on man.

 

[oneforthebus]

Threat or hysteria? If I, or you for that matter, are to put these threats in there proper perspective, why is jihadism the one that should take precedent? Based on proximity and recent experience, if I'm to feel threatened by jihadism, I should feel much more threatened by random mass shootings. FWIW, I'm not particularly threatened by either. I worry more about things like a dump truck driver becoming distracted or incapacitated as I'm driving in the other lane. Statistics, ya know...

Geez, I don't know what to say to that. Yeah, I guess if statistics say it's not likely going to affect me personally, I shouldn't care about it. Guess that let's me off the hook for all sorts of stuff.

Recognizing a legitimate threat is not "hysteria".

 

[Tibs]

Nobody says there is no danger from white American radical groups (I'm not going to call them "right wing" because that's a misnomer). We can and should hunt them out and thwart their plans.

Good to know you feel that way.

We don't have to pretend that they have the same kind of reach, organization, funding, weapons and sheer numbers that radical Islamists have to do that.

Again that is true in Europe, the ME and in other parts of the world. I'm not so sure that's true on mainland USA.

Why are you so desperately attempting to use them to diminish radical Islamism?

I'm not. But the discourse on this board is troubling to me. The insistance that Islam and Terrorism are inherintly connected is a falacy, in my opinion. The openly racist and bigoted views as expressed on this board are unacceptable to me. So when I read thread after thread of opinions that I do not share, I speak up. In my part of the world fanatical Islamist terrorism is a real and present threat. I'm not pretending that's not the case nor am I arguing it shouldn't be defeated at all cost.

And for those fucktards that keep whining about me being in Hungary 'protected by the wall' et al, you should know - but of course you don't - that the Bataclan terrorists, and I mean all of them, camped out here in Budapest for months before heading to Paris to carry out their gutless, bloody attacks on civilians.

That's the weird thing. Are you so obsessed with trying to make conservatives look like evil racists that you're willing to risk people's lives to do it? You really want us to shift our focus away from radical Islamists and more towards American right wing radicals? You really and truly believe that's the wise course of action?

Okay, now we're onto something. My issue is that Trump mandated that right-wing terrorist groups be TAKEN OFF the various watch lists, surveillance and other investigative efforts. I would argue it's not an either or proposition. Of course radical Islamist terrorism should remain the focus, but to brazenly open Pandora's box for fascist lunatics is dangerous. It's like leaving a box of matches out at a pyromaniacs' Xmas party. The fact that violent, racist, white supremist groups have been emboldened by Trump's actions speak for themselves.

 

[oneforthebus]

The insistance that Islam and Terrorism are inherintly connected is a falacy, in my opinion.

Sorry, but that is just wrong and you must know that. Are there peaceful Muslims? Of course. But to say that Islam and terrorism are not connected is ridiculous and you know it. Why don't you believe these groups themselves when they tell you what they're all about? They aren't making any secret of it.

My issue is that Trump mandated that right-wing terrorist groups be TAKEN OFF the various watch lists, surveillance and other investigative efforts.

As you know I'm no fan of Trump, but this one smells like fake news because it is...

http://www.snopes.com/trump-terror-watch-program/

 

[Ron Burgundy]

M-15 has discovered over 23,000 jihadists in the UK. That's why they're on high alert now and it's what happens when you do not speak out against radical Islamic terrorism. Now they're ******.

London has enough Muslims that they elected a Muslim mayor, who allows that occasional terrorist attacks are the new normal. Of course.

 

[Tibs]

...but this one smells like fake news because it is...

From Reuters:

The Trump administration wants to revamp and rename a U.S. government program designed to counter all violent ideologies so that it focuses solely on Islamist extremism, five people briefed on the matter told Reuters.

The program, "Countering Violent Extremism," or CVE, would be changed to "Countering Islamic Extremism" or "Countering Radical Islamic Extremism," the sources said, and would no longer target groups such as white supremacists who have also carried out bombings and shootings in the United States.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-extremists-program-exclusiv-idUSKBN15G5VO

And also this:

Donald Trump freezes funding to groups fighting right-wing terror and white supremacism
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...m-cve-funding-freeze-10-million-a7715101.html

 

[ark steel]

Sorry, but that is just wrong and you must know that. Are there peaceful Muslims? Of course. But to say that Islam and terrorism are not connected is ridiculous and you know it. Why don't you believe these groups themselves when they tell you what they're all about? They aren't making any secret of it.



As you know I'm no fan of Trump, but this one smells like fake news because it is...

http://www.snopes.com/trump-terror-watch-program/

Interesting that even the left leaning snopes wouldn't go with that. Of course, they list it as Unproven rather than False, which seems odd.

 

[Tibs]

Sorry, but that is just wrong and you must know that. Are there peaceful Muslims? Of course. But to say that Islam and terrorism are not connected is ridiculous and you know it.

If the overriding majority of the 1.6 billion Muslims weren't peaceful, we'd all be long dead.

Why don't you believe these groups themselves when they tell you what they're all about? They aren't making any secret of it.

In their sick, twisted minds they may think they're acting on behalf of Islam. But that is a perversion of the religion. I view fanatical Islamist terrorists as members of a perverse, evil cult, not one that is directly connected to - or even an offshoot of - the traditional Muslim faith itself. At best, it can be viewed as a ******* stepchild.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.