Florida Valentines Day Shooting

[deljzc]

I was on vacation (in Florida of all places) the last week so I'm just now getting into this debate. I'm pretty middle ground when it comes to both the gun debate and abortion (two very similar topics in my opinion). But I have been doing my research, reading a lot and considering both sides.

This is what I would do. Not sure I think this is right-leaning or left-leaning (you guys tell me). And I don't expect everyone to be happy (that's really not my goal). I have 10 changes with the underlying need to nationalize many rules and have more direction from the Supreme Court (who hasn't issued a ruling on guns in over a decade).

1. Nationalize background check system and continue to upgrade and simplify the process. Purchasing a gun at a "gun show" needs to follow the background check system. So do internet sales/mail orders. Private sales or gifts to anyone outside the immediate family (grandfather to grandchild, husband/wife, uncles, aunts, 1st cousins to one generation removed) also need to get approval on the background check. You should be able to print out your own approval form and get it notarized to simplify this process (i.e. it doesn't HAVE to be up to the seller to do this, the buyer can do it to).

2. Felons and those convicted of misdemeanor domestic abuse/assault lose their constitutional right to bear arms. Felons can apply for reinstatement after 10 years. Misdemeanor convicts can apply for reinstatement after 5 years.

3. There should be no "gun free" zones.

4. Teachers/administrators that currently hold a concealed carry permit can further apply to become a "last defender" at schools. This takes a bit more training but would include a slight increase in pay/wages from school districts. This is a certifications that you would be able to carry from job-to-job in teaching. You would be allowed to carry/have a concealed handgun at school during your work. No one would know who these teachers are except school officials. It would be up to school administrators and school boards to decide how many "last defender" qualified teaches they want hired and active.

5. Limit magazine size for all semi-automatic rifles and handguns to 10 rounds. Any device that overrides the 10 round limit, the safety devices on a gun or the semi-automatic fire rate (i.e. bump stocks) would be illegal to sell, own or carry.

6. Crimes committed with an illegal firearm would carry greater punishment and prison sentences.

7. The age to purchase semi-automatic rifles and handguns should be raised nationwide to 21. Those 18-21 can purchase hunting/sport style shotguns (none semi-automatic, combat or riot class) and hunting rifles (bolt action, lever guns or similar - no semi-automatic).

8. Create a nationalized concealed carry permit system that would be allowed in all of the United States. This should be medium-to-difficult to get with a decent waiting period, background check and required training. Re-certification should be required every 5 years.

9. Open carry laws should be left up to individual local/state legislation.

10. Immediate family members (those listed above) can request through the police/court system to remove a person's right to bear arms in a similar style of getting a restraining order. This has to be done with a decent amount of paperwork, approved by a judge and is not indefinite (only for a certain amount of time).

Note I think some of these already exist in some parts of the country. I would just make it universal as best possible from coast to coast.

Those are just my ideas and what I would like to see happen. Something for both sides we might be able to agree on.

 

[deljzc]

I would also like to discuss the background check system sometime. Here are the current reasons why (and how often) people fail on NICS background check through the FBI:

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/gun-background-checks-nics-failure/

I guess my question/debate is "Should we add any more categories that would trigger a fail?"

Do we need to consider anything that happens in school as a teenager that would add you to the FBI list for maybe a certain amount of time?

Could/should we add any high school student expelled from school to be on this list until they turn 25? Any other crimes/misdemeanors as a teen that would suspend your right to bear arms until 25? Maybe that would help in some of these cases.

Another thing to discuss is criminal liability when those under 21 commit a crime with a family member or guardian's gun that would otherwise have been illegal for them to obtain/purchase. Should we increase/create criminal punishment in these cases?

 

[ark steel]

And this is the topic that needs dumped. It is a non-issue. There are other issues that can be discussed with the attempt to find some answers. I spoke with high school freshman today who were more open to discussion than adults today. High school students who felt the need to have a active shooter drill just like we have fire drills because that is the society that we live in. They mentioned mental health and accessibility for those that don't want to go to the guidance office. They talked about the being desensitized to life with video games and movies. They talked about 30 years ago their parents coming to school with guns in their truck because they liked to hunt and respected guns and how to handle it. Varying opinions, no one yelling at each other, no one worried about anyone taking their guns, no one talking about the NRA. Trying to find some real answers to the insane people out there doing such horrific things.

So, what you are saying is that you were not using political talking points or talking about violating the constitution and no one got mad? The HELL you say?

 

[ark steel]

I would also like to discuss the background check system sometime. Here are the current reasons why (and how often) people fail on NICS background check through the FBI:

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/gun-background-checks-nics-failure/

I guess my question/debate is "Should we add any more categories that would trigger a fail?"

Do we need to consider anything that happens in school as a teenager that would add you to the FBI list for maybe a certain amount of time?

Could/should we add any high school student expelled from school to be on this list until they turn 25? Any other crimes/misdemeanors as a teen that would suspend your right to bear arms until 25? Maybe that would help in some of these cases.

Another thing to discuss is criminal liability when those under 21 commit a crime with a family member or guardian's gun that would otherwise have been illegal for them to obtain/purchase. Should we increase/create criminal punishment in these cases?

That is good information.

The issue that has the libs all up in arms on their talking points is the Obama rule that put certain SS disabitity recipients on the list to be denied. in a clear violation of due process. What the libs leave out when spouting about Trump doing the NRA's bidding is that the ACLU also argued for that repeal, for the same reason.

This seemed to be a BS rule (not only unconstitutional) because the people included would, seemingly, fall into the Adjudicated Mental Health category, too, if they were a real threat.

How long do you stay in the database for some of those items? If you had a misdemeanor DV 25 years ago and have lived a fruitful life since? 5 years, 10 years?

One of the pieces that was interesting is that the fugitive from justice one where some states have pro-active policies to go to the place and arrest the person. Seems like ALL states ought to have that. In addition, if you answered any of the questions with a lie (i.e. not convicted of a crime) why isn't there a pro-active policy by local police to go check out why that felon is trying to buy a gun and lied about it? A new felony, especially, if on parole, ought to put them back in jail.

If you are a fugitive from justice and apply, you are to dumb to live amongst people.

 

[Steelerfan]

So many things about this event annoy me.

I heard a great point raised today. Why is there no anger directed towards the shooter, but all the venom is towards the NRA, Republicans, etc.?

We all know the answer, but It made me wonder what's wrong with this picture? So many things about this event bother me. You have people talking about it who have no idea of the details of what actually happened, so they're talking out their ***. Its all about a political agenda, and its shameful that the students are being used as puppets of the left to promote an agenda, instead of being treated for their trauma. One of the components of treating kids with trauma is to get them back to their routine as soon as possible. But no, lets take bus trips across Florida.

Another thing, now students across the country are "protesting" by having "walkouts" and the teacher's unions are supporting it. WTF? Teachers supporting kids NOT coming to school? What's wrong with THAT picture?

I really hope that voters see through this left-wing nonsense and get their act together for the midterms.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

I'm having an issue with my laptop- it won't let me cut and paste websites. But go to Chicks on the Right, and you will see a breaking article about one of the Florida survivors (ROTC kiddo who made a kevlar wall and shielded students). He had a list of questions prepared, but CNN refused to let him ask them and gave him a list of scripted questions. He refused to go on air.

Here’s an article on it
http://www.breitbart.com/big-journa...cnn-town-hall-refusing-ask-scripted-question/

 

[jitter77]

Rubio was getting booed before he could even talk. He said there were hundreds of guns that do the same thing as an AR 15 without the fancy name. He said you would have to ban all semi auto rifles and not even the dems on stage would commit to that. Not only that you have hand guns capable of holding 10+ rounds so are you going to ban all those too?

 

[coupon]

all abortions must be performed by gun. everybody wins.

 

[Superman]

I was on vacation (in Florida of all places) the last week so I'm just now getting into this debate. I'm pretty middle ground when it comes to both the gun debate and abortion (two very similar topics in my opinion). But I have been doing my research, reading a lot and considering both sides.

This is what I would do. Not sure I think this is right-leaning or left-leaning (you guys tell me). And I don't expect everyone to be happy (that's really not my goal). I have 10 changes with the underlying need to nationalize many rules and have more direction from the Supreme Court (who hasn't issued a ruling on guns in over a decade).

1. Nationalize background check system and continue to upgrade and simplify the process. Purchasing a gun at a "gun show" needs to follow the background check system. So do internet sales/mail orders. Private sales or gifts to anyone outside the immediate family (grandfather to grandchild, husband/wife, uncles, aunts, 1st cousins to one generation removed) also need to get approval on the background check. You should be able to print out your own approval form and get it notarized to simplify this process (i.e. it doesn't HAVE to be up to the seller to do this, the buyer can do it to).

2. Felons and those convicted of misdemeanor domestic abuse/assault lose their constitutional right to bear arms. Felons can apply for reinstatement after 10 years. Misdemeanor convicts can apply for reinstatement after 5 years.

3. There should be no "gun free" zones.

4. Teachers/administrators that currently hold a concealed carry permit can further apply to become a "last defender" at schools. This takes a bit more training but would include a slight increase in pay/wages from school districts. This is a certifications that you would be able to carry from job-to-job in teaching. You would be allowed to carry/have a concealed handgun at school during your work. No one would know who these teachers are except school officials. It would be up to school administrators and school boards to decide how many "last defender" qualified teaches they want hired and active.

5. Limit magazine size for all semi-automatic rifles and handguns to 10 rounds. Any device that overrides the 10 round limit, the safety devices on a gun or the semi-automatic fire rate (i.e. bump stocks) would be illegal to sell, own or carry.

6. Crimes committed with an illegal firearm would carry greater punishment and prison sentences.

7. The age to purchase semi-automatic rifles and handguns should be raised nationwide to 21. Those 18-21 can purchase hunting/sport style shotguns (none semi-automatic, combat or riot class) and hunting rifles (bolt action, lever guns or similar - no semi-automatic).

8. Create a nationalized concealed carry permit system that would be allowed in all of the United States. This should be medium-to-difficult to get with a decent waiting period, background check and required training. Re-certification should be required every 5 years.

9. Open carry laws should be left up to individual local/state legislation.

10. Immediate family members (those listed above) can request through the police/court system to remove a person's right to bear arms in a similar style of getting a restraining order. This has to be done with a decent amount of paperwork, approved by a judge and is not indefinite (only for a certain amount of time).

Note I think some of these already exist in some parts of the country. I would just make it universal as best possible from coast to coast.

Those are just my ideas and what I would like to see happen. Something for both sides we might be able to agree on.

I believe we can start with this, and discuss it like adults and not like screeching jackasses in government. So…

1. I do believe gun shows require background checks be performed when buying them. The loophole, in my understanding, refers to people buying guns from the trunks of cars in the parking lot. I’m unsure how to legislate that we have background checks performed in private transactions for guns, as something like that could very well lead to more government intrusion via other private sales (as reference – those conducted via Craigslist, LetGo, etc). Now, a notary that would simply approve that the sale was performed is a decent idea, as it would remove the original owner from liability of the gun purchased and show a chain of ownership if necessary.

2. I don’t believe felons should ever have their right to carry restored. Maybe to have a gun in the household, but never to be removed from their property or fired towards the outside of their property (such as in a driveway, shooting down a street or over a house/structure).

3. TOTALLY agree

4. This is a novel idea, but not one the left will ever go for. They liken this to making schools a prison, and creating an unsafe/unsure environment for the precious snowflakes. I’m not 100% certain, but I believe the cop who roamed our school grounds had a gun in a holster. I don’t know of a single incident where anyone felt unsafe when he was around – only when he slammed into the boys bathroom to bust ******* for smoking.

5. Totally disagree. There will be people simply taping magazines back to back for quick and easy reload. So, IMO, this will not do much good, if any at all. Aside from that, magazines are so large since it takes a while to reload at the range, and no one wants to spend more time reloading magazines than shooting.

6. Yes. Up to and including life in prison, or if a violent act was committed using a gun, even a death sentence. Though, this is not to be confused with defending oneself with a firearm.

7. I can agree with making the legal age to own a gun 21. Maybe even make it so that you cannot carry concealed until 25. I don’t agree with not allowing ownership of semi-automatic weapons, as that is a gray area. Even a lever-operated could be argued as being semi-automatic (one pull of the trigger, one bullet fired).

8. Yes. Though I’d want re-certification if a person moves out of state or 10 years.

9. Yes.

10. Yes.


I would also like to see way to add mental health issues (such as being issued certain psychotic drugs) as a reason to refuse sales of a firearm. This is not to be confused with say ex-military suffering from PTSD and in need of dick pills. But for people on Prozac or any mind-altering prescription medication. Though the danger there is having this stored online, and hackers obtaining the information, not to mention HIPPA laws. We sure don’t need every Tom, Dick and Harry at the local gun shop knowing what medication a person is taking. Though all of this would have to be included in the 3-day waiting period when purchasing a firearm.

 

[ark steel]

Any purchase from a licensed dealer must have the background check. This, to my knowledge is a federal requirement. This includes those made at gun shows and internet sales. Buy a gun online, it goes to an FFL who will accept it and the FFL will do the background check.

The "gun show loophole" is a made up term that has nothing to do with gun shows. No sponsor or licensed dealer at the gun show is involved. This may happen more often at a gun show because the sell an buyer knows there are other gun people there who may be interested. Even then, this is a very, very small percentage of sales at gun shows.

I believe it is against federal law to privately sell to someone who will take it out of state.

When you complete the background check request when buying a gun, it asks "Are you buying this for your use". If you answer yes, and give it to your brother, you violated the law, already.

In FL, if you do not have a concealed permit, you wait 3 days to pick up your gun. If you have a CC, you can walk out with it. This also applies to guns bought at gun shows. You don't have a CC, you go to the Dealer's place of business 3 days later to pick it up.

The age thing irks the hell out of me. Kid joins the Army at 18 and can be trusted to have a fully automatic weapon, but cant be trusted with a semi-auto? Crazy to me. (same goes for drinking IMO)

 

[SteelChip]

Any purchase from a licensed dealer must have the background check. This, to my knowledge is a federal requirement. This includes those made at gun shows and internet sales. Buy a gun online, it goes to an FFL who will accept it and the FFL will do the background check.

The "gun show loophole" is a made up term that has nothing to do with gun shows. No sponsor or licensed dealer at the gun show is involved. This may happen more often at a gun show because the sell an buyer knows there are other gun people there who may be interested. Even then, this is a very, very small percentage of sales at gun shows.

I believe it is against federal law to privately sell to someone who will take it out of state.

When you complete the background check request when buying a gun, it asks "Are you buying this for your use". If you answer yes, and give it to your brother, you violated the law, already.

In FL, if you do not have a concealed permit, you wait 3 days to pick up your gun. If you have a CC, you can walk out with it. This also applies to guns bought at gun shows. You don't have a CC, you go to the Dealer's place of business 3 days later to pick it up.

The age thing irks the hell out of me. Kid joins the Army at 18 and can be trusted to have a fully automatic weapon, but cant be trusted with a semi-auto? Crazy to me. (same goes for drinking IMO)

All this may be true Ark but while perusing thru a flea market last Saturday I ran across a booth with a rack of 5 or 6 rifles, several handguns and a table full of ammo. I know for a fact that there are restrictions on what ammo can be sold but I was a little shocked when the vendor told me that there was no restriction on him selling firearms.

Turns out he was correct...

Firearm sales

Florida law permits private firearms transfers between residents without processing through a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL).

The Florida Constitution, Art VIII Sec. 5(b), permits counties to enact ordinances that require a criminal history records check and a 3 to 5-day waiting period when any part of a firearm sale is conducted on property to which the public has the "right of access",[29] such as at a gun show conducted on public property. These local option ordinances may not be applied to holders of a concealed weapons permit/license.[30] Only Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Hillsborough, and Volusia counties have enacted such ordinances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Florida

 

[Steel Ballin]

The SRO waited outside the building where the slaughter took place.....never went in. Appalling.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...ver-went-in-during-shooting-sheriff-says.html

 

[SteelerSask2]

The SRO waited outside the building where the slaughter took place.....never went in. Appalling.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...ver-went-in-during-shooting-sheriff-says.html

But Trump says after he arms the Librarian, The middle school Geography teacher and best of all the macho football coach the problem will go away. Cause its human nature for a school teacher to run head long into a gun battle with someone with an assault weapon and body armor. You really couldnt make up the **** that flows out of his mouth if you tried.
And sunce their so badly underpaid will give em a little bonus. Wink. It will be cheap. ****** gold.

 

[Steel Ballin]

But Trump says after he arms the Librarian, The middle school Geography teacher and best of all the macho football coach the problem will go away. Cause its human nature for a school teacher to run head long into a gun battle with someone with an assault weapon and body armor. You really couldnt make up the **** that flows out of his mouth if you tried.
And sunce their so badly underpaid will give em a little bonus. Wink. It will be cheap. ****** gold.

Of course we know what Hiliary would have said......"What difference, at this point....does it make??!!"

 

[Superman]

But Trump says after he arms the Librarian, The middle school Geography teacher and best of all the macho football coach the problem will go away. Cause its human nature for a school teacher to run head long into a gun battle with someone with an assault weapon and body armor. You really couldnt make up the **** that flows out of his mouth if you tried.
And sunce their so badly underpaid will give em a little bonus. Wink. It will be cheap. ****** gold.

and the poor chil'renz will see their pristine innocent skewl as a prison. amirite?

 

[Smash]

But Trump says after he arms the Librarian, The middle school Geography teacher and best of all the macho football coach the problem will go away. Cause its human nature for a school teacher to run head long into a gun battle with someone with an assault weapon and body armor. You really couldnt make up the **** that flows out of his mouth if you tried.
And sunce their so badly underpaid will give em a little bonus. Wink. It will be cheap. ****** gold.

Here. Thank me later.

http://www.5minuteenglish.com/

 

[Smash]

The age thing irks the hell out of me. Kid joins the Army at 18 and can be trusted to have a fully automatic weapon, but cant be trusted with a semi-auto? Crazy to me. (same goes for drinking IMO)

I like the age idea Trump mentioned today. I know this drills down to the 2nd but hear me out. When a young person enlists, they aren't given M-16's to sleep with. They are whipped into shape, observed for psychological "concerns" and graded for ability. When they surpass basic training, they receive advanced training which includes job specific weapons or are reassigned to something suitable. Some slip through the cracks as you know.

Now, who is more likely to purchase an AR? Your son or your daughter? When you sign your kids up for auto insurance, you pay more for your son because your daughters are less likely to be reckless behind the wheel. It is what it is due to maturity. An 18 year old male isn't as mature as his sister and imo even with experience neither should be allowed to purchase semi-auto weapons. It doesn't step on the 2nd, just looks at it from a modern pov.

.02 cents Ark.

 

[ark steel]

All this may be true Ark but while perusing thru a flea market last Saturday I ran across a booth with a rack of 5 or 6 rifles, several handguns and a table full of ammo. I know for a fact that there are restrictions on what ammo can be sold but I was a little shocked when the vendor told me that there was no restriction on him selling firearms.

Turns out he was correct...

If he is a private seller, that is correct. I.e. be is not a licensed gun dealer.

 

[jitter77]

Now they are saying there was an armed deputy outside who did not enter the school. He was going to be at least suspended, but resigned

Oops just saw this posted above..appalling indeed

 

[CharlesDavenport]

But Trump says after he arms the Librarian, The middle school Geography teacher and best of all the macho football coach the problem will go away. Cause its human nature for a school teacher to run head long into a gun battle with someone with an assault weapon and body armor. You really couldnt make up the **** that flows out of his mouth if you tried.
And sunce their so badly underpaid will give em a little bonus. Wink. It will be cheap. ****** gold.

You are projecting your *****. You bet your *** that plenty of teachers will be heroes in that situation.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

 

[Steeltime]

Now they are saying there was an armed deputy outside who did not enter the school. He was going to be at least suspended, but resigned

Oops just saw this posted above..appalling indeed

Un-*******-believable.

My take on dangerous jobs like infantry, law enforcement, fire suppression, etc. is this. If you want to do the job, rock on. But you damn well better be someone who runs INTO the burning building, not AWAY, and someone who runs TOWARDS gunfire, not away. This dude was a complete fail.

FBI - fail. School deputy - fail. Deputy department which supposedly had no idea that its armed protection at this school was a coward - fail. Psycho buys a ton of weapons, talks about being a professional school shooter, murders 17 citizens - deserves to be burned alive but is free and murders - fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail.

But yeah, the real problem is the NRA.

 

[SteelerSask2]

You are projecting your *****. You bet your *** that plenty of teachers will be heroes in that situation.

You mean like the police officer outside the school who wouldnt go in. And by the way he was most likely acting by proceedure. Active shooter requires back up. Not saying that he was right to not go in. But we we are all heroes till we are pressed into the situation. Clearly all you big tough guys are. If you think that a regular person with marksman training and a handgun is supposed to leave a secure spot and go out and shoot at a guy with body armor and a long gun you are ****** dreaming.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Un-*******-believable.

My take on dangerous jobs like infantry, law enforcement, fire suppression, etc. is this. If you want to do the job, rock on. But you damn well better be someone who runs INTO the burning building, not AWAY, and someone who runs TOWARDS gunfire, not away. This dude was a complete fail.

FBI - fail. School deputy - fail. Deputy department which supposedly had no idea that its armed protection at this school was a coward - fail. Psycho buys a ton of weapons, talks about being a professional school shooter, murders 17 citizens - deserves to be burned alive but is free and murders - fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail.

But yeah, the real problem is the NRA.

On my drive home from the airport tonight, I listened to a Sheriff being interviewed and he brought up an excellent point. He said if you have armed deputies and the likes in schools "today" they are the guys that local branches felt weren't typically cut out for street duty, had a better sense of mentoring kids and the like. Being an armed guard in a school was more like being taken off the beat. He said that clearly this deputy, despite being armed, was the wrong man for the job.

Clearly that's a no **** statement, but there's a lot of truth to what he's said. Those scant few people in schools today that are armed are Deputy Fife officers. That's gonna slowly change.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

You mean like the police officer outside the school who wouldnt go in. And by the way he was most likely acting by proceedure. Active shooter requires back up. Not saying that he was right to not go in. But we we are all heroes till we are pressed into the situation. Clearly all you big tough guys are. If you think that a regular person with marksman training and a handgun is supposed to leave a secure spot and go out and shoot at a guy with body armor and a long gun you are ****** dreaming.

No, I mean like an armed teacher. Yes, normal men would respond appropriately. You would be one of the ******* we protect.