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Let's discuss ... tariffs

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What is your opinion on the tariffs the Trump administration has placed on other countries?
What is the end game in this, in your opinion.

Cite sources and be relevant.
 
Tariffs make $ for the government, so in theory the libs would like that. It also protects the USA worker.

In many cases they are not needed.

However in areas critical for the well being of the United States, it makes sense to use them when our trade deficit is greatly unbalanced.

Our two largest trade deficits are.

1 China -295 billion
2. Mexico – 65.46 million

Mexico counts on us for 85% of their exports. Okay, pay up for the wall and broader security as the USA is paying a ton support, deport, and detain your own, not to mention the 100,000+ victims of crimes committed by illegal immigrants. If I were Trump, I’d impose a 5% tax until 12 Billion is collected ( to pay for the wall or boarder security ). Mexico should think about it, we could hire many Mexicans for the project, so it’s not a total loss.

US Trade Deficit at 13-Month Low. The US trade gap narrowed to USD 40.44 billion in March of 2016 from a downwardly revised USD 46.96 billion deficit
– A Trump effect if you will.
 
First the endgame - to reduce or eliminate tariffs on United States goods, to increase our manufacturing base. Also keep in mind that China's current electronics boom and their status as the world leader in electronics manufacturing is based entirely on stealing US technology. China uses a series of maneuvers to keep US goods out of their market, including tariffs, quarantine permits on agricultural goods, and selective use of their value added tax ("VAT").

http://www.idealtaxes.com/post3097.shtml

The result has been that the Unites States imports more than three times as much from China as we export. The result is a loss of a huge amount of manufacturing jobs in this country, notably in steel, aluminum, electronics, toys. The US still has a positive export ratio on agricultural goods, simply because the United States is the greatest agricultural producer on the planet, by far, and the price and quality of US goods overcomes even the phony increased price due to tariffs.

china.png


After taking office, President Trump ordered that the commerce department investigate the effect of Chinese tariffs on US steel and aluminum production, and whether the effect on US metals manufacturing presented a threat to national security.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/30/news/economy/trump-china-us-tariffs-trade-timeline/index.html

The Trump administration imposed no tariffs on Chinese goods until January of 2018, and then imposed tariffs on Chinese aluminum and steel in March, 2018. The current debate and battle of talking points is that China's steel constitutes just 3% of US steel imports. That is not quite accurate, however, as China uses "transshipping" to make it seem that it is not exporting more steel to the United States.

I would wager that Tim knows a lot more about this than I do, but I understand that the strategy of transshipping is to have China send its steel to Vietnam or Mexico, where it is then processed in some fashion before being exported to the United States. The steel import is then not designated as being imported from China, and is instead listed as a steel import from Vietnam or Mexico, when in fact the steel comes from China.

The current policy is that simply stamping a label "made in Vietnam" will not suffice to avoid the tariff, but if the recipient country processes the steel into pipes or door panels or whatever, then it evades the tariff on Chinese steel.

http://theconversation.com/how-transshipment-may-undercut-trumps-tariffs-95487

What is clear is that China uses tariffs to pump up industries it wants to build its economy. China had low wages and substantial tariffs on clothing, fashion accessories, and other low-end manufactured items for decades, but now wants to take over the higher-paying and higher-profit industries such as semiconductors, where the United States continues to dominate. This NYT article discusses the issue pretty well:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/business/china-trade-tariffs-trump.html

China also currently has a massive trade surplus with the United States:

b9d81b0e-8ad0-40ff-9be8-71671085c0c1.jpg


The simple fact of the matter is that United States consumers benefit greatly from China spending its own resources in subsidizing industry and exporting goods at a very low cost. However, the same policies undercut United States manufacturing. Therefore, the money saved on a suit or a bicycle comes at the expense of an American citizen losing his or her job producing that suit or bicycle.

The reason why China can produce and export goods so inexpensively is due to tariffs, but also due to lax environmental regulation and very low wages in comparison to other developed countries:

chinachart2.png


The undeniable truth of the matter is that wages in China are accelerating quite rapidly, and China's filthy air and water have become such a health concern that the nation's leadership is begrudgingly looking at minimal environmental protections. The only "tool" those government officials have to manipulate manufacturing and trade is tariffs. Therefore, the United States is properly looking to cripple the "tariff weapon" to assist U.S. manufacturing.

Further, in this potential "trade war," China and the United States both stand to lose - but China stands to lose much, much more. The nation gains $375 billion per year in terms of the goods and materials it exports to the United States as compared to the goods and materials it imports. That $375 billion surplus yields billions upon billions of wages for the employees creating those goods and materials and billions of dollars in tax revenues for that production. Currently, about 40% of China's exports to the United States consist of high-profit electronics:

20170128_FNC671.png


The simple fact of the matter is that the United States is looking to use tariffs and threatened tariffs to REDUCE government-sponsored industry favoritism. If and when the tariff subsidies equalize, then the U.S. will certainly gain manufacturing jobs and revenues, since China is very much a world leader in "gaming" the manufacturing industries.

China is the leader in the use of subsidies and tariffs to promote their industry, but the EU is also a big player in this game:

20170429_FNC531.png


Again, that graph is not dispositive since China clearly uses "transshipping" to hide a lot of its steel and aluminum exports to the United States, but the graph does depict the substantial amount of subsidized metals that are exported to the United States by the European Union.

Do trade wars hurt the U.S. economy? In the short term, you bet. Long term, not nearly so much as the reduction or elimination of tariffs on U.S. goods by China, Canada, Mexico, the E.U., etc. will bolster our manufacturing, and manufacturing jobs pay very well - quite a bit better than "service industry" jobs:

ted_20130325b.png


So the trade wars are painful and expensive short-term, look to pay dividends long-term, and are something that the U.S. unfortunately cannot simply ignore.
 
I suspect that President Trump's long-term goal is lower or no tariffs. This is a negotiation in order to get other nations to lower or remove their tariffs on our stuff.
 
Once more, for countries that let corporations use their population as virtual slaves, tarrifs are a fabulous idea... im not a fan for countries that have simular compensation and safety cultures to our own.... china and mexico fail miserably and frankly they deserve nothing from us favor wise
 
I think that what strikes you as making sense probably does. Unless you are a liberal and that is a different topic. So if one country is charging us twice what we are charging them, then it is a bad deal and we are getting hosed. "Free traders" act like if we don't levy any tariffs then that's free trade, and it isn't. I'm for no tariffs if everyone else does the same.
 
I think it is a fine line Trump is walking. For example while the things he said about Canada is true, what is left out is we heavily tax goods we send the them as well and actually have a trade surplus with Canada. I dont feel Canada is taking advantage of us in any way. As for other countries like China we are getting destroyed in trading. Their workers work for dirt cheap and dont have to follow the same regulations / quality control as us so they can make the products a lot cheaper. Also workers in the US do not want to work for minimum wage so an item that costs $1 now may cost $3 if it was made in the USA. Trade wars have to potential to throw the whole US economy into chaos. Heavy tariffs can help balance things out, but then they will start taxing our goods or just refuse to trade with us. I am afraid of seeing farmers having tons of surplus which creates waste and they also will not be getting paid. I feel like we do need to recover some of the money lost due to unfair trade, but I certainly do not think their is a simple solution such as just slapping more tariffs on goods.
 
(Burgundy dusts off his old economics instructor hat.) There are two kinds of advantage that one nation might have over another. Comparative advantage, where they can make something at lower cost for a number of reasons (chiefly labor cost) and absolute advantage where they can make something that you can't or don't have (nickel mining being a good example). Comparative advantage's playing field can be leveled with tariffs and absolute advantage cannot, or at least you have no domestic industry to protect in the first place. There are also two types of tariffs, protective and revenue. Protective tariffs, obviously, are to raise the price of the imported good to make the same domestic good price-competitive and tend to be high and whether the government makes money is a secondary concern. Revenue tariffs tend to be low and their purpose is to generate revenue for the government. Obviously again, if it is too high then fewer people will buy said product and the government will not make as much money. Keep the tariff low and people will buy and the government makes more money. All that said, the true free marketer will say that if China or Mexico can make plastic toys or bath towels for less, then let them and we will use our productive capacity to make other more valuable things. What is most efficient is for every nation to specialize in what they do well and trade with each other. However, in reality our labor markets are not that flexible and people see their jobs going to China or Mexico or wherever and not being replaced with anything any time soon. especially as China goes from making plastic laundry baskets to iPhones. So the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Hope this helps.
 
Damn you people,....spaces. Hit enter! Lol.
 
I can only talk about personal experience but I know that there is a problem somewhere in all this import-export stuff.

I do some custom buildings for the model RR guys and I use a lot of little 6 volt LED lighting. All the miniature LED's come from Asia. I can get a dozen prewired specialty lights for next to nuthin' ( $3 ) and the shipping is free. That same prewired LED is available in the States ( mostly Cal ) for about $2 each plus $.50 shipping.

This same story plays out with little motors, pumps and plastic parts. I understand how they can make it cheaper but how is it that they can ship products across the pond ( China Post ) cheaper than I can ship across my State ?

uawluo1.jpg
 
With china you also have to factor in that they have historically used practices like dropping prices below cost to drive all foreign competitors out of the market then raising said prices higher than they could with competition... standard monopoly nonsense... in those cases tariffs can absolutely level the playing field and keep that from happening
 
This is about a strong US dollar negatively affecting exports.
Drop the dollar relative to the other currencies, and the trade issues solve themselves.

Tariffs just serve the effect of making foreign production more expensive, exactly the same effect as a weaker USD.

Whatever would happen if oil was not traded in USD?
What happened to leaders of last two countries that attempted to decouple their oil sales from USD?



Sent from my SM-N950W using Steeler Nation mobile app
 
I am all for free trade. The issue is trade is only free if it is fair and reciprocal. Notice the tariffs are being laid against countries that already have tariffs in place against some of our goods or deny us market access? Its a negotiation tactic.
 
With china you also have to factor in that they have historically used practices like dropping prices below cost to drive all foreign competitors out of the market then raising said prices higher than they could with competition... standard monopoly nonsense... in those cases tariffs can absolutely level the playing field and keep that from happening

 
I have always thought our trade system should be simple as far as tariffs go. We will extend the same terms to your country as you do to ours. Period. Free trade? Sure. Taxed to hell? If you wish. If you don;t like the terms, YOU change them.
 
I mainly care about steel, since that’s the industry I work in. China’s steel production is far greater than their own domestic needs. They have been flooding the U.S. with steel at a price that is less than what it even costs them to make it. It’s subsidized by their government. Trumps first year in office was the worst in my memory for the steel market here. Since China new the tariffs were coming they slammed us, shipping steel through many other countries. That’s why the tariff is not just on China but also the others. Since the tax cut and the tariffs went into effect my company is booming. We have hired two new employees, given out bonuses and raises and sales are up 20% over last year. Regarding the “trade war,” how is it free and fair trade when don’t tax or have a very small tax on other countries products, but they hit our products with 20-30% tax? All we want is fair and equal trade policy. Anyone who doesn’t agree with that just wants America to keep getting ****** by the rest of the world. Our past Presidents have been extremely weak and soft on trade, on foreign policy, on NATO, on climate bullshit etc... Not. Any. More. And I love it. There used to be pride in the slogan Made in the U.S.A. Buy American.
 
A lot of the manufacturing products that come back to the United States from China are from US companies manufacturing
there. Apple is one of the big manufacturers there. So if China becomes more costly does Apple bring that manufacturing
back to the US or go to another cheaper country like Indonesia. If they act in the interest of their shareholders, they go to
the next cheapest place.
 
Bow done *******!




President Trump announces a ‘new phase,’ in US-EU relationship, working toward ‘zero tariffs’

President Donald Trump on Wednesday secured concessions from Europe, averting a trade war.

The report came shortly before Trump and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker were scheduled to brief the press at a joint conference in the White House Rose Garden.

The Europeans agreed to lower industrial tariffs and import more U.S. soybeans.

President Donald Trump said the United States and the European Union had launched a "new phase" in their relationship, saying that the two major economies would start negotiations immediately on a number of areas that include working toward "zero tariffs" on industrial goods, and further cooperation on energy issues.

"We agreed today, first of all, to work together towards zero tariffs, zero non-tariff barriers and zero subsidies for the non-auto industrial goods," Trump said at a joint press conference in the White House Rose Garden with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/25/tru...ing-out-on-a-fair-trade-deal-with-europe.html
 
A lot of the manufacturing products that come back to the United States from China are from US companies manufacturing
there. Apple is one of the big manufacturers there. So if China becomes more costly does Apple bring that manufacturing
back to the US or go to another cheaper country like Indonesia. If they act in the interest of their shareholders, they go to
the next cheapest place.

You just exempt Apple products from tariffs.
 
hahahahahahha



Bernie Sanders "Strongly Supports" Trump's Tariffs

LOS ANGELES – U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) issued the following statement after President Donald Trump imposed steep tariffs on Mexico, the European Union and Canada:

"We need a trade policy that is fair to American workers, not just large multi-national corporations. We need to stop the hemorrhaging of American jobs as large corporations shut down in the United States and move to low-wage countries. .

"I strongly support imposing stiff penalties on countries like China, Russia, South Korea and Vietnam to prevent them from illegally dumping steel and aluminum into the U.S. and throughout the world. American steel and aluminum workers need our help, and they need it now, but not at the expense of farmers, workers, small businesses and consumers in Vermont and throughout this country

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-statement-on-trump-tariffs
 
Bernie Sanders "Strongly Supports" Trump's Tariffs
President Trump and Bern agreed on a lot of things. They just differ on how to get there.
 
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