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Well maybe they will look at it differently if he gets 12 sacks or maybe not. We have had a lot of long Timmons threads here over the years .....
Noooooo (Tomlin 2 year extension)
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Well maybe they will look at it differently if he gets 12 sacks or maybe not. We have had a lot of long Timmons threads here over the years .....
Good point.
What I have never had explained to me with any real sense is how when things go wrong on the field you can differentiate when it is the coaches fault or the player's fault. Some people seem to be able to do that. I can't. I wish I had that power.
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Parker traded most of his draft choices so he had few big cuts. But Unitas was way before his time.I do think you'd have a hard time finding an NFL team that hasn't made a few mistakes.
I just heard that the Steelers passed up Dan Marino back in '83. How'd that happen?
MIKE FOSTER FROM EWA BEACH, HI:
I just finished reading your article about Mike Tomlin signing his contract extension and his philosophy. To me, he is a great combination of his two predecessors in that when things are going well he is fired up like Bill Cowher, but when things aren't going so well he is even-keeled, cool, calm, and collected like Chuck Noll. Do you agree? I love him as a coach, and think he and Kevin Colbert are so simpatico.
On this one, I’m going to defer to Steelers Chairman Dan Rooney. Shortly after Mike Tomlin was hired in January 2007 as a 34-year-old, comparisons were made between Tomlin and Bill Cowher, likely because of their defensive backgrounds and the fact Cowher also was 34 when he was hired by the Steelers. But Rooney told me that while many on the outside-looking-in might see Tomlin as similar to Cowher, he thought Tomlin was much more similar to Chuck Noll.
http://www.steelers.com/news/asked-...10153581040374905&adbpl=fb&adbpr=146175949904
I just finished reading your article about Mike Tomlin signing his contract extension and his philosophy. To me, he is a great combination of his two predecessors in that when things are going well he is fired up like Bill Cowher, but when things aren't going so well he is even-keeled, cool, calm, and collected like Chuck Noll. Do you agree? I love him as a coach, and think he and Kevin Colbert are so simpatico.
On this one, I’m going to defer to Steelers Chairman Dan Rooney. Shortly after Mike Tomlin was hired in January 2007 as a 34-year-old, comparisons were made between Tomlin and Bill Cowher, likely because of their defensive backgrounds and the fact Cowher also was 34 when he was hired by the Steelers. But Rooney told me that while many on the outside-looking-in might see Tomlin as similar to Cowher, he thought Tomlin was much more similar to Chuck Noll.
http://www.steelers.com/news/asked-...10153581040374905&adbpl=fb&adbpr=146175949904
Tarkus
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In a word yes...as head coach is it not his responsibility to approve of any game plans his asst. coach's provide him?
And how many times has this team, under his watch, seem to play down to the level of competition? or come out looking unprepared?
or how about continuing to stick to a game plan when it is apparent to everyone in the stadium, including some of his players that the game plan is not working and his inability or refusal to make in game adjustments.
not to mention some of the obvious draft farts that him and Colbert have come up with.
I don't think he was saved by asst. coaches, it was more of the players that did that.
maybe outwitted was the wrong term used...
Listen, I don't hate the guy like others here, I just don't think that he is a coach worth 7 mil a year. plain and simple
And here is another question...And I know I will get hammered for this, but think objectively as possible.
But given his limited years as a coach in the league, without the Rooney Rule, do you really think that he gets the opportunity to interview for the head coaching job of the Steelers?
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That was more the doings of The Bruce but it's Tomlin's job to straighten him out if need be. Doesn't seem to be as much of a problem with Toddster.
Agree 100%.
No.
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He would still get to interview for the steelers but doubtful for anyone else, they created that rule because they feel strongly about it no reason to think it would not happen if there was no rule.
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Kind of the purpose of the Rooney rule. To give young minority coaches an interview. Some would say with the Tomlin hire it would show the rule worked. Then also I'm sure some would say otherwise.
Without the Rooney Rule, I don't think Tomlin or many other minorities get the opportunity to interview for many head coaching jobs ... Steelers or not. That's proven by history.
Now, what about the players when it comes to coming out flat and unprepared? It seems to me that these guys are professionals and have some responsibility for their own preparation. I'm not saying Tomlin/the coaching staff don't have some responsibility too .. just that a coach shouldn't have to be a "rah rah sis boom bah" type of guy to motivate professionals.
As far as whether he is worth 7 mil a year; I could care less what they pay him. It's not my money. If people who are closely tied to the pocket strings and the organization (the owners) want to pay him that much: 1) It's none of my business and 2) He'd be a fool not to take it.
The steelers would be looking at folks that were minorities. They were one of the first teams to do this in their hiring practices with players and scouts. When many all black or mostly black colleges were ignored by other teams the steelers spent time there and selected players from there, some of which are now in the hall of fame. They have also considered many minority coaches and hired them at various positions over the years. I suspect when they let Joe Green Know he was not going to be a head coach for the team they had a reason other than his skin color to go in another direction.
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It has nothing to do with race.
Tomlin is average. Not good. Not bad. Average.
All the numbers point to it, even his "good winning percentage". He's supposed to win that much with Roethlisberger as a QB and having two defensive player of the years on the roster he took over, all in their prime.
He's not winning at any rate more or less than expected.
He won as many playoff games with Roethlisberger in 8 years as Cowher did in the 3 previous.
He's failed to make the playoff or gone one-and-done 6 out of his 8 seasons here as a coach.
He had TWO strong, over-achieving seasons that he certainly deserves tons of credit but TWO out of EIGHT does not make him "above average". It does NOT make his an all-time good coach. Same thing with Sean Payton and same thing with Tom Coughlin. They are underachieving too, just like Tomlin.
Looking back over the past eight seasons, I expected and wanted more from this team. Period. When he took over I said missing the playoffs once in the next 5 years with that roster would be acceptable. That's 20%. He's missed the playoffs 37.5%. And his playoff record is 5-4 when according to Vegas we should be 6-3. So he's not lighting it up come crunch time either.
These are all facts. They are indisputable.
I guess some are fine with the past eight years. I am not. I wanted better.
Tomlin is average. Not good. Not bad. Average.
All the numbers point to it, even his "good winning percentage". He's supposed to win that much with Roethlisberger as a QB and having two defensive player of the years on the roster he took over, all in their prime.
He's not winning at any rate more or less than expected.
He won as many playoff games with Roethlisberger in 8 years as Cowher did in the 3 previous.
He's failed to make the playoff or gone one-and-done 6 out of his 8 seasons here as a coach.
He had TWO strong, over-achieving seasons that he certainly deserves tons of credit but TWO out of EIGHT does not make him "above average". It does NOT make his an all-time good coach. Same thing with Sean Payton and same thing with Tom Coughlin. They are underachieving too, just like Tomlin.
Looking back over the past eight seasons, I expected and wanted more from this team. Period. When he took over I said missing the playoffs once in the next 5 years with that roster would be acceptable. That's 20%. He's missed the playoffs 37.5%. And his playoff record is 5-4 when according to Vegas we should be 6-3. So he's not lighting it up come crunch time either.
These are all facts. They are indisputable.
I guess some are fine with the past eight years. I am not. I wanted better.
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I would like to go 16 and 0 every year. I am disappointed every year though. I do know that to expect that it is a little unrealistic. ...
Del, please name a HC who is not mired in cheating scandals who is not "average" in today's NFL ... Whenever this discussion is brought up folks want to give their opinion of Tomlin and why he's average or not fit to coach the Steelers. That's great. It's what a forum is for. HOWEVER, when pressed to name a coach who is proven to be vastly superior and available, we are usually met with a collective ............... nothing. College coaches with no prior NFL experience don't count as they can't be said to be "proven" to be vastly superior to Tomlin in a league in which they have never coached.
Again, we never hold the players responsible. Must always be the coach. Players can't be expected to get motivated to play a bad team, a coach has to pep the up. What a crock of ****.
Why I highlighted the Ben part: If he plays in some of those playoff games under Tomlin as well as he did under Cowher, (I am thinking Indy and Denver in '05), what does that record look like? Sometimes I wonder if the record in playoff games under Tomlin is directly correlated to giving Ben more control of the offense.
Fact is, and they are indisputable, the QB plays better in a few of those games and everything else stays the same, none of you are bitching about Tomlin. They beat Green Bay. They beat Denver in the Tebow game. They probably beat the Ravens this past year.
I think the world of Ben, but he hasn't played great in some of the big games. Does he deserve $20 million a year?
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Tomlin is not SOLELY responsible for anything. Colbert is at fault. The players are at fault. Luck is at fault.
But that is part of what makes average, average. When you are good (or great) you find ways to overcome all the normal day-to-day adversity and overachieve vs. the average. This team, under the LEADERSHIP of Tomlin and Colbert, has not. It has played at or below what normal statistical averages would have predicted over the past 8 seasons.
Granted, I have said this forever, winning a Super Bowl is extremely, extremely hard. They deserve a TON of credit for that in 2008. And at the time, through 2 seasons, Tomlin was hitting on all cylinders. But the decline is partly his responsibility. And the decline was fairly drastic when you consider we had a franchise quarterback ages 27-32 with 2 Super Bowl Rings on his hand. To miss the playoffs 3 times since then and go one-and-done 3 other times since that last Super Bowl victory is a pretty bad track record in a "what did you do for me lately" league.
And there is no correct "what if" answer that I can promote that would guarantee better results over the last 8 seasons.
I am on record that Whisenhunt was my #1 choice in 2007. I would have quickly hired him after the dog-and-pony show of "interviews" and "Rooney Rule" stuff. His managing of the offense in 2006 sold me on him. I think he would have been good for Roethlisberger's development (more-so than Arians) and I think he would have taken the job even if the Rooney's demanded he retain Lebeau as his DC.
But once Tomlin was hired and that decision was water under the bridge, I have NEVER been on-record, in any off-season, that I would fire him. I'm just stating he's average. The only on-record change I would have made was firing Colbert after 2013 (the 2nd 8-8 season in a row). I would have gone younger, someone more 21st century. And that GM's input on Tomlin would have influenced my decisions on him moving forward.
I have said numerous times, I'm not convinced Colbert is fairly evaluating Tomlin's performance for Art Rooney II. I think Colbert and Tomlin are too tied together at the hip and I am not convinced there is enough constructive disagreement between the two. I am also on record as being a bit disappointed in Art Rooney II and his increased involvement with NFL matters (revenue growth) and not enough involvement with the team. Rooney currently seems very content with the product Tombert has been putting out on the field. I am not and don't know how anyone could since we haven't won a playoff game since 2010.
So in order:
1. I was on record Whisenhunt was my #1 choice in 2007
2. I've wanted to find a way to fire Colbert for YEARS, but the only realistic time was after 2013 (I can't remember, but I probably wanted Colbert fired after 2009 as well but that would have been a hard sell a year removed from the Super Bowl).
3. I was on record that I wanted to fire Arians after the 2010 season, despite the Super Bowl appearance.
Look, I loved our 2008 super bowl run. Great for everyone involved. But we have to honestly ask ourselves how much leeway that gives Tomlin in his job evaluation. Since 2008, it's been pretty crappy and I just don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. Just because none of those mediocre seasons fell to 7-9 doesn't make them good or worthy of praise. This team has underperformed a LOT on big and small stages. And Tomlin has too.
The simple fact is that as more of Cowher's players retired, the team got worse until last year's offense-led 11-5 uptick but the defense was still awful.
Agree.
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You really want to blame Roethlisberger for the "Tebow game?" 23 points should have been more than enough to beat that team. Also, Cotchery and Wallace both had crucial drops in the first half.
Roethlisberger has his flaws, but Tomlin would have been fired YEARS AGO without him. The Steelers need both a consistent running game and/or an elite defense to maximize their potential with Roethlisberger at QB. Under Tomlin, they've never had the former, and Cowher handed him the latter, which he and Colbert have proceeded to royally **** over, by failing to replace the likes of Smith, Hampton, Harrison, Taylor and Polamalu with even remotely comparable talent.
You want to place the bulk of the blame on the players, but these are largely "Tomlin's players" at this point.
Many of us are frustrated because we can see the writing on the wall once Roethlisberger declines and/or retires. This team will essentially become the Browns, not just because they'd lack a franchise QB, but because the coach is borderline clueless.
A team like the Browns might have fired Tomlin years ago if he didn't have a franchise QB. The Steelers don't usually make those type of knee-jerk reactions; and we're better off for it. You can't/don't just *POOF* replace the likes of Smith, Hampton, Harrison, Taylor and Troy. If you could, then every team in the NFL would have a defense like the Steelers 00's defenses. Nobody want's to place the "bulk" of the blame on the players ... but there is culpability there too when things go bad. 11-5 last year with "largely Tomlin's Players". Playoffs sucked though.
And yes, this team will decline when Ben is gone. That's the natural order of things in the NFL. (See, Steelers of the 80's post-Bradshaw). And, no the Steelers will never be as bad as the Browns. It's funny to me that those of you who talk about the coach being "clueless" are on this board rather than off coaching at training camp somewhere. The fact is that while Tomlin "might" be average as a HC, he's probably got more of a "clue" than 95% of us.
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So you now admit he's average?
I understand your perspectives Del, but you fail to even mention the 2010 season where the Steelers reached another Superbowl. That was another great run with a chance to win it at the end.
I just can't get behind the whole "hasn't won a playoff game in 4 years". Luck is a factor. Losing 2 out of 3 starters on the DL in the first half of the Denver game and not having your Offensive MVP for the Ravens game, kind of hurt the momentum of those games.
Though I digress, I do understand the frustrations of rooting for a team that you (and I) expect more out of. I wanted to jump off a bridge after each and every AFCC loss where we had the better team. I can see your points about having a better QB and thus getting above average numbers in wins. Though this holds true for each and every coach that has ever coached in the NFL. Coaches don't rack up wins without franchise QBs, and Ben has been great, but I expect more greatness out of him. I think we saw flashes last year, and it feels like he's committed to improving the O this year.
I'm more excited about this year than I have been in a long time, and if we underachieve, your argument will strengthen.
I just can't get behind the whole "hasn't won a playoff game in 4 years". Luck is a factor. Losing 2 out of 3 starters on the DL in the first half of the Denver game and not having your Offensive MVP for the Ravens game, kind of hurt the momentum of those games.
Though I digress, I do understand the frustrations of rooting for a team that you (and I) expect more out of. I wanted to jump off a bridge after each and every AFCC loss where we had the better team. I can see your points about having a better QB and thus getting above average numbers in wins. Though this holds true for each and every coach that has ever coached in the NFL. Coaches don't rack up wins without franchise QBs, and Ben has been great, but I expect more greatness out of him. I think we saw flashes last year, and it feels like he's committed to improving the O this year.
I'm more excited about this year than I have been in a long time, and if we underachieve, your argument will strengthen.
LMAO ... You're better than that del. Personally, I don't see an All-Time Great HC anywhere in the NFL right now. I know the rest of the world wants to crown Belichick as one, but all I see is a cheater. And that makes me question his accomplishments. So, yes, in comparison to the All-Time Greats, Tomlin is about an average coach. In comparison to his peers? He's a top 5 HC who is being paid as such.
Dungy, Coughlin, Lewis, McCarthy, Hazlet, Pete Carrol, Whizenhut, Grimm, are all coaches I would rather have had as head coaches than Tomlin. There maybe others that I am not aware of as well as these guys are just the guys I am familiar with. So in looking at that list I do not see MT as a top 5. I will say this regarding MT he seems to be getting better but he is still not better in my mind that those guys on the list. Interesting thing on my list all but one of the guys has a tie to Pittsburgh that I am aware of and I think they could have done well here. Dungy is in my mind the best of the bunch who had a reputation as a very smart ball player when he was here.
I also agree that belicheat was not a great coach but likely the greatest cheater of all time.
I also agree that belicheat was not a great coach but likely the greatest cheater of all time.
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I could be wrong but I believe someone said that if the Steelers did a thorough search they most likely could find 2 or 3 candidates that would be as good as Tomlin and might be better. I'm sure this search would include the college ranks along with all NFL coaches and assistant coaches. Makes you wonder why the Rooney's bypassed this option and extended Tomlin 2 more years doesn't it?