We need a new Head Coach.......FIRE TOMLIN NOW!!!

[antdrewjosh]

So do you think Lebeau was off golfing on draft day?

The decline in the defense point to two reasons in my opinion not being able to replace Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton. Easier said then done. You cant predict injuries. Who here expected Woodley to be on the Raiders and not harassing QBs for us still. Troy is steady but he isnt the game changing Troy of years ago and rightly so. Age is the great equalizer.

Willie Parker suffered an injury. Tomlin didnt run anyone into the ground.

We've argued this last point many times on this board. With as many good coaches we have on this staff I put this on the players. I cant think of many games against inferior teams where the gameplan was the issue. Getting up for games is not on coaches at this level to me. Your a professional.

 

[Vader]

ah. ok. now we're getting somewhere.
so we're critiquing the NFC South.

As a Steelers fan, no, I would never consider a 6-win season a success. Glaring flaws are obvious in these teams. Yet, they make the playoffs, which is what you want as a fan and player. Even you would have to admit that's a difficult stance to take. If you consider it a failure, then what happens if they pull it together and win the Super Bowl? if you consider it a success, what if they're bounced in the first round? Many ways to look at it....without spinning.

The NFC South is an anomaly. The Saints could still end up 9-7. There has never been a single digit winning team win the SB since they went to a 16 game season. But I don't really care about anomalies when talking about playoffs and expectations. The Steelers aren't making the playoffs with 7 wins.

 

[deljzc]

Coaches can regress over time.

Once a good coach, always a good coach is not correct.

Sometimes a coach is the benefactor of replacing someone truly awful. In comparison then the first couple of season can have the "honeymoon" effect and players are more attentive, more engaged, more interested in showing up to work on time, etc. That effect wears off over time and thus results change.

Sometimes it take enough blunders, game day errors, game planning fiascos, etc. for the veteran leadership of a team to catch on a head coach isn't quite as smart as they thought. That too can cause a coach to "lose it".

Sometimes a coach gets burnt out. There are few, if any, professions that demand the type of passion, time and energy as being a football coach effectively. We might not realize it, but people's personal lives and values change. Ten years ago, a coach might think 120 hours at the office is fun and that enjoyment rubs off on the players. Now a coach might feel the 120 hours is not appropriate or a misguided priority. That also comes across in unspoken body language to the players.

There are MANY reasons a coach "loses it" and doesn't effectively teach, motivate or make proper decisions the same as they did even 2-3 seasons ago. Sometimes, under different circumstances, the light bulb can turn back on. Sometimes the brief time the light bulb was on was false success.

To put a blanket statement like "Lebeau did not become a different coach since 2008" is wrong. We don't know. Just like we don't know if Lebeau is the same PERSON as he was in 2008. People change. And when you work in a field that is predominantly about inter-personal relationships and inspiring the best out of young adults, it can be a fragile line between maintaining your edge and losing it.

 

[freak]

to me a succesfull season is going deep in the postseason

 

[topseed]

You are so very right. I am completely cowed by your superior knowledge and reasoning.Oh, wait. Maybe it is because you are so thick headed, you wouldn't listen. It's not like people haven't tried. You are so thick headed that you can't even see that few, if any, tout Tombert as a great coach but you still refer to those who don't think he sucks as nut huggers or ballchinians or whatever.If it makes you feel mo betta to think you have it all figured out, more power to you.

I didn't ask you to refute my superior knowledge and reasoning. I asked you to challenge one single item mentioned in another guy's (rather lengthy) post. You declined.

That would lead anyone reasonable person to believe that you're a Tomlin nuthugger.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

1. Lebeau did not become less of a coach from 2008 to now. His talent level declined, and Tomlin bears considerable responsibility for that fact. He drafted players that really don't fit - Hood, Timmons - and basically ignored the NT position. He drafted CB's quite late.

3. The fact that Sanders was an elite talent who did not realize his potential until immediately after leaving the Steelers does not detract from his skill level.

4. Troy played well in 2012. He was playing pretty well in 2014 before being hurt. Blaming Troy for the decline in the defense is not a legitimate approach, IMO.

5. Tomlin also had Willie Parker and ran him into the ground, and had Bell for most of last year. He has had better RB's than the majority of NFL teams during his tenure. 2 thin seasons and 6 with outstanding talent at the position, as far as I am concerned.

Finally, one off game against a crappy opponent can be blamed on the players. Maybe 2. Possibly 3.

But 12 times?? That is a pattern that reflects on the head coach.

1. You make it seem as if "I" stated that Lebeau became less of a coach when I simply stated the truth that many have called for his retirement.
3. Sure it detracts from him. The fact that he did not show that skill level here is a detraction. Either he suddenly got better or he didn't live up to his skill level here.
4. I didn't say Troy was garbage. What I said was that the Troy we're getting now is not the Troy of his hey day. That's a fact.
5. What does Willie Parker have to do with the 8-8 seasons that were being discusses (deflection on your part). And you are talking about the starting RBs while I was discussing the group as a whole. Even discussing the starting RBs, you yourself admit that they were only "better" than most; not "Stellar".

Again, I didn't place sole blame on either the players or Tomlin. I personally think that Tomlin bears a good portion of the blame; as I stated. I also believe that the players are responsible for things like "effort" and "motivating" themselves.

*Aside - it seems that you omitted portions of my statement when quoting. Portions that when removed make it seem like I did not assign blame to Tomlin for his part in those losses. That's pretty disingenuous.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

The NFC South is an anomaly. The Saints could still end up 9-7. There has never been a single digit winning team win the SB since they went to a 16 game season. But I don't really care about anomalies when talking about playoffs and expectations. The Steelers aren't making the playoffs with 7 wins.

If the Steelers stay stuck on 7 wins they'll finish the season last in their division. /Captain Obvious

 

[topseed]

Feel free to gargle on a bag of balls like your new clan. The fact is: 8-8 DOES NOT EQUATE to a LOSING SEASON. FACT.

Feel free to wave your upset flag that the team loses to piss pour teams (when you feel that the Steeler's should have stomped them), feel free to parade your opinion that no one in the FO or on the coaching staff has any sense because they only choose duds during the draft, feel free to complain after a WIN...

Remember this FACT: HATERS are GOING TO HATE - REGARDLESS of the outcome. That, bag of dicks, is what I pray can change around here - and I hope you get the point - FINALLY.

If anyone around here is gargling with balls, it's you with Tomlin's. Does 8-8 equate to a winning season?

I guess I should be happy when the Steelers lose to piss-"pour" teams. My bad. And I can't jump for joy after they barely beat another horrendous team while allowing an offense with three rookies to do exceptionally well. I'm sorry, but when Zach Mettenberger-led team is able to average 8 yards a play, I can't help but wonder what Brady or Manning might do.

Never said the front office has chosen only duds, in fact I've mentioned some of the offensive talent quite a bit. It's my contention that the defense has gone from excellent to poor, and lost just about all of its depth along the way.

What I HATE is the fact that the Steelers have gone from perennial title contenders to an also-ran fringe playoff team. And, yeah, somebody needs to be blamed for it. Obviously, 8-8 with a franchise QB is good enough for you and your merry band of nuthuggers, but some of us expected a little more from this "cycle."

 

[stillwright]

That isn't what I asked. I asked if you considered a 6 win playoff team successful.

If they went on to win the SB....yes.

 

[topseed]

you mean facts such as Tombert is a complete and total imbecile incapable of spotting a trend and addressing it? Or that Tombert is a clueless simpleton on the sidelines who only cares about how he looks while in his patented Ray-Bans?

One could gloss over all the silly facts and say all that is true, or one could invest a little more time and look at the true facts and stats that really do not lie.

I'm on record as saying that I'd let Tomlin go. Though, now, I'm not so sure.

In 2011, we were 12-4. Much hand-wringing was going on about Arians not developing Ben and pretty much "winging it" week in and week out. That was the same year that Tebow torched us in Denver. You know, our alleged #1 defense. That was the same year we lost Willie Colon, Chris Hoke and Aaron Smith to the IR. Add in that even Mewelde Moore missed the last three games with a knee.

So Arians was let go. To the elation of much of the Steeler fanbase. FINALLY we can get our best out of Ben and the offense!!!!!

2012
8-8, Tomlin's first non-winning season.

Offense finished 14th in passing
Offense finished 26th in rushing
Offense finished 22nd in scoring.
Defense dropped to 6th overall.

Of course, Aaron Smith retired, which was a big loss to our D, despite his lack of play time the previous season - since his backup, Hood, was overall ineffective. James Farrior also retired. We drafted DeCastro, Adams and Spence. Two of which were lost to the IR for all but one game that season, with DeCastro listed as "out" the first game (so, essentially two of three high draft picks were lost). Colon again found his way to IR. To compound that, Marcus Gilbert was also lost to IR for the last five games of the season and was "out" for three others previously. Ike Taylor also missed the last four games. So, yes, Injuries played a big toll on this team. Not an excuse, but those are facts.With DeCastro and Gilbert gimpy/out, our OL was a mess. Mendenhall was also not at 100% for the majority of the season, and even was suspended for one game.

Significant Retirements: Smith, Farrior
Draft: DeCastro, Adams, Spence
IR: DeCastro, Gilbert, Colon, Spence, Taylor

2013
8-8, again
Offense finished 12th in passing
Offense finished 27th in rushing
Offense finished 16th in scoring.
Defense dropped to 9th overall.

We started out 0-4, including a nice drubbing by the Vikings in London. Tomlin's seat was warming. Fans were jumping from bridges. Bandwidth was blistering. Thankfully, a bye in Week 4 allowed us to right the ship some as we went 8-4 the rest of the season. Despite losing to the Raiders, we were just a couple inches from making the playoffs (had Brown not stepped on the sideline vs the Dolphins). The team faced adversity, losing Pouncey in Game 1 and our rookie RB didnt make his debut due to injury as well. To address some OL deficiency, we traded for Levi Brown...who also promptly went on IR. Later in the season, still eyeing a glimmer of playoff hope, we bring in Fernando Velasco, who checked in to the IR ward for the last four games of the season.

Draft: Jarvis Jones, Bell, Wheaton
Free Agents/Players Lost/Released: Harrison, Foote, Wallace, Mendenhall, Lewis, Colon
IR: Levi Brown, Pouncey, Foote, Spence, Stephens-Howling, Velasco

Currently, our offense is 8th overall (5th passing, 10th rushing). The defense is the anchor, weighing in at 19th.

So you can throw all this at the feet of Tomlin. Right?!?!? Pitchforks! Trash on his lawn! Loot! Pillage! Rape the landside! He doesnt know what he's doing. He's laying waste to our franchise QB's prime years!! He's incapable of challenging plays!! I get it. I understand. Though look at the roster upheaval. Compounded by retirements and injuries. While absolutely no one thinks an 8-8 season is a successful one, we're also just outside of being in playoff contention. As 2005 showed, anyone can sneak in and win. Aside from that, in Tomlin's pretty successful on his challenges. He's made 49 challenges, having 26 overturned.

Now that I consider all of that, I'm not so sure that I'd want him gone. What I do expect is a large emphasis on defense in the next draft. The trend of our defense getting worse is obvious. That will have to be addressed further. Though, that is a role between Tomlin and Colbert.

Yes, the Tebow game was certainly the beginning of the end. He was the first (and only, as far as I know) quarterback since the merger to throw three separate 50-yard passes in a single playoff game.

Your statistics basically outline what I've been saying: There is talent on offense (yardage numbers are great, but redzone problems persist), but the defense has gone downhill. What concerns me is the sheer loss of defensive depth to replace the players who have retired, and the guys getting injured this year are either not that good to begin with (Jarvis), or shells of their former selves (Ike and Troy). The cupboard is pretty much bare on defense. Let's take a look at what "Tombert," as you like to say, has done in the draft with defensive players:

2007: Timmons, Woodley, Ryan McBean, Gay
2008: Bruce Davis, Mike Humpal, Mundy
2009: Hood, Keenan Lewis, Joe Burnett, RaShon Harris
2010: Worilds, Thad Gibson, Crez Butler, Stevenson Sylvester, Doug Worthington
2011: Heyward, Curtis Brown, Cortez Allen, Chris Carter
2012: Spence, Alameda Ta'amu, Terrence Frederick
2013: Jarvis, Shamarko, Terry Hawthorne, Vince Williams, Nick Williams
2014: Shazier, Tuitt, Shaquille Richardson, Jordan Zumwalt, McCullers

Who on this list is really worth a damn? Timmons is good, not great. Woodley had a couple of splash years, and is essentially done. Gay has been a barely-serviceable player his whole career. Mundy is average at best. You described Hood yourself as ineffective. Keenan Lewis is the best player they drafted, IMO, and yet they let him walk without an offer. Worilds is average at very best. Heyward is good, not great.

I'll give the last draft a pass until further determination, but EVERYBODY else on that list has never amounted to anything. Do I consider Tomlin responsible for these poor choices? Yes. Shouldn't I? He was a defensive back coach and a defensive coordinator, but look again at the DBs there. A lot of them are mid-round picks, but besides Lewis, THEY ALL STINK. What free agents have replaced guys like Aaron Smith and Farrior? NOBODY. They sign guys like Cam Thomas and Arthur Moats now.

Who else do you think deserves to be held accountable for these eight years of ****** drafts and worthless free agent signings?

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Who else do you think deserves to be held accountable for these eight or nine years of ****** drafts and worthless free agent signings?

Either Tombert or suddenly Colbert became a moron overnight by himself.

 

[deljzc]

Either Tombert or suddenly Colbert became a moron overnight by himself.

It is not as black or white as moron vs. genius.

That's the problem some here seem to want to argue, just like this country seems to argue about everything. Black or white. Good or bad. Success or failure.

The truth is Tomlin's not stupid and no one is really saying he is (at least not seriously).

But the NFL is a fine line business. There are thousands of decisions (some more important that other, but still all factors to some degree) that go into winning an losing football games and even more over the course of a season and even more that affect the course of eight seasons.

It is my opinion Tomlin is not "above the line". That doesn't mean he is stupid of completely moronic or a complete failure or utterly over his head. That means he has not made enough proper decisions to keep this team "above the line" and continue to uphold the standards and talent of what I think he was given. Is he alone in every decision? Is every decision effecting the team his and his alone? Of course not. Colbert bares a lot of the responsibility (to the point I've wanted him fired way before Tomlin). Art Rooney bares responsibility. The coaching staff bares responsibility. And yes, even the players bare responsibility.

But just because a person is PART of a group decision or outcome doesn't give him a free pass to not be evaluated on his work. You can't hind behind the group when it fails to reach expectations. Is it all Tomlin's fault? Of course not. But evaluation of his job performance can and should still be done.

It is my opinion, based on what I expect of a head coach's contributions to the success/failure (however you want to define it) of the franchise, that Tomlin's job performance is not very good. And certainly not good enough to doubt the idea the grass can and could be greener over the fence (with another coach). This decision has been based on ALL EIGHT YEARS of his tenure here. It is based on the TOTALITY of his contributions. Not one game. Not one decision. When a coach is as much a part of the success/failure of a team, there are many good decisions and many bad decisions. Every coach can't be right all the time. I have never expected that (nor has anyone else here).

But the truth is the team is underachieving and the head coach's decisions and contributions are a major part of that (not ALL).

We have gotten to a point where I can not be convinced WHY TO KEEP TOMLIN. For all the bickering and comparisons, I have yet to see an intelligent, compelling argument on why Tomlin is best for this team moving forward. What makes him superior to other coaches. Or why firing him would increase the likelihood we would stay the same or get worse. I just don't see it.

 

[ark steel]

That would lead anyone reasonable person to believe that you're a Tomlin nuthugger.

If you know any one of these mythical people, maybe you can have them explain that there are not just two options.

 

[ark steel]

3. Sure it detracts from him. The fact that he did not show that skill level here is a detraction. Either he suddenly got better or he didn't live up to his skill level here.

Could the QB throwing to him have any effect?

 

[awboatguy]

Tomlin sucks! He really really sucks! A steady decline in talent and an inept record doesn't scream coaching genius. However, he is one cool dude.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Tomlin sucks! He really really sucks! A steady decline in talent and an inept record doesn't scream coaching genius. However, he is one cool dude.

The only other coach who looked as good on the sideline was Jack Del Rio in his suit and tie. With a Nike label of course.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

It is not as black or white as moron vs. genius.

That's the problem some here seem to want to argue, just like this country seems to argue about everything. Black or white. Good or bad. Success or failure.

The truth is Tomlin's not stupid and no one is really saying he is (at least not seriously).

But the NFL is a fine line business. There are thousands of decisions (some more important that other, but still all factors to some degree) that go into winning an losing football games and even more over the course of a season and even more that effect the course of eight seasons.

It is my opinion Tomlin is not "above the line". That doesn't mean he is stupid of completely moronic or a complete failure or utterly over his head. That means he has not made enough proper decisions to keep this team "above the line" and continue to uphold the standards and talent of what I think he was given. Is he alone in every decision? Is every decision effecting the team his and his alone? Of course not. Colbert bares a lot of the responsibility (to the point I've wanted him fired way before Tomlin). Art Rooney bares responsibility. The coaching staff bares responsibility. And yes, even the players bare responsibility.

But just because a person is PART of a group decision or outcome doesn't give him a free pass to not be evaluated on his work. You can't hind behind the group when it fails to reach expectations. Is it all Tomlin's fault? Of course not. But evaluation of his job performance can and should still be done.

It is my opinion, based on what I expect of a head coaches contributions to the success/failure (however you want to define it) of the franchise, that Tomlin's job performance is not very good. And certainly not good enough to doubt the idea the grass can and could be greener over the fence (with another coach). This decision has been based on ALL EIGHT YEARS of his tenure here. It is based on the TOTALITY of his contributions. Not one game. Not one decision. When a coach is as much a part of the success/failure of a team, there are many good decisions and many bad decisions. Every coach can't be right all the time. I have never expected that (nor has anyone else here).

But the truth is the team is underachieving and the head coach's decisions and contributions are a major part of that (not ALL).

We have gotten to a point where I can not be convinced WHY TO KEEP TOMLIN. For all the bickering and comparisons, I have yet to see an intellectual, compelling argument on why Tomlin is best for this team moving forward. What makes him superior to other coaches. Or why firing him would increase the likelihood we would stay the same or get worse. I just don't see it.

See, I like this. I may not agree with all the finer points and implications, but it is a well thought out and articulated statement of Del's opinions. Some of which I do agree with.

 

[awboatguy]

The only other coach who looked as good on the sideline was Jack Del Rio in his suit and tie. With a Nike label of course.

Didn't want that fine! Ha!

 

[SteelBuckeye]

Could the QB throwing to him have any effect?

Sure could and most likely does. But, the drops at crucial times and injuries could also have been part of the problem.

 

[ark steel]

Sure could and most likely does. But, the drops at crucial times and injuries could also have been part of the problem.

I haven't watched him in Denver enough to know about his current drops, but I would expect that they have declined as a ratio to targets because Peyton, too.

 

[Steeltime]

*Aside - it seems that you omitted portions of my statement when quoting. Portions that when removed make it seem like I did not assign blame to Tomlin for his part in those losses. That's pretty disingenuous.

Horseshit.

I included only those portions to which I was responding. You need me to repeat statements you made and say, "Okay"??

 

[ark steel]

Sure could and most likely does. But, the drops at crucial times and injuries could also have been part of the problem.

I haven't watched him in Denver enough to know about his current drops, but I would expect that they have declined as a ratio to targets because Peyton, too.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Sure could and most likely does. But, the drops at crucial times and injuries could also have been part of the problem.

Injuries were my knock on the guy. I didn't dislike him and thought he was a decent WR when healthy but was sure out hurt a lot with these mysterious foot injuries.

Didn't want that fine! Ha!

Del Rio wanted to go old-school and pay respect to the game with the Tom Landry/Hank Stram look. The NFL didn't have suits and ties as official sideline wear (witness Hoodie looking like a homeless bridge troll) so Nike came up with an official suit and tie just for Del Rio.

 

[bermudasteel]

I love the IGNORE feature...Peace and hair grease!!!

 

[Omar10213245]

It is not as black or white as moron vs. genius.

That's the problem some here seem to want to argue, just like this country seems to argue about everything. Black or white. Good or bad. Success or failure.

The truth is Tomlin's not stupid and no one is really saying he is (at least not seriously).

But the NFL is a fine line business. There are thousands of decisions (some more important that other, but still all factors to some degree) that go into winning an losing football games and even more over the course of a season and even more that effect the course of eight seasons.

It is my opinion Tomlin is not "above the line". That doesn't mean he is stupid of completely moronic or a complete failure or utterly over his head. That means he has not made enough proper decisions to keep this team "above the line" and continue to uphold the standards and talent of what I think he was given. Is he alone in every decision? Is every decision effecting the team his and his alone? Of course not. Colbert bares a lot of the responsibility (to the point I've wanted him fired way before Tomlin). Art Rooney bares responsibility. The coaching staff bares responsibility. And yes, even the players bare responsibility.

But just because a person is PART of a group decision or outcome doesn't give him a free pass to not be evaluated on his work. You can't hind behind the group when it fails to reach expectations. Is it all Tomlin's fault? Of course not. But evaluation of his job performance can and should still be done.

It is my opinion, based on what I expect of a head coaches contributions to the success/failure (however you want to define it) of the franchise, that Tomlin's job performance is not very good. And certainly not good enough to doubt the idea the grass can and could be greener over the fence (with another coach). This decision has been based on ALL EIGHT YEARS of his tenure here. It is based on the TOTALITY of his contributions. Not one game. Not one decision. When a coach is as much a part of the success/failure of a team, there are many good decisions and many bad decisions. Every coach can't be right all the time. I have never expected that (nor has anyone else here).

But the truth is the team is underachieving and the head coach's decisions and contributions are a major part of that (not ALL).

We have gotten to a point where I can not be convinced WHY TO KEEP TOMLIN. For all the bickering and comparisons, I have yet to see an intellectual, compelling argument on why Tomlin is best for this team moving forward. What makes him superior to other coaches. Or why firing him would increase the likelihood we would stay the same or get worse. I just don't see it.

You put it so succinctly, well done (especially the last paragraph)