FordFairLane draft grades

[tapeANaspirin2it]

I don't know if you are talking a out a specific play, but it, certainly, does not mean that, in general. It could very well mean you had a specific assignment, someone else didn't carry out their's and now you are stuck chasing a guy down from behind.

on any given play it means that but it is a knock against Bush that he has so few tackles for loss. It either means he doesn't read plays fast enough or he doesn't trust it so he waits and makes the safe play. I suppose it is possible that Michigan coached him up to play it safe rather than trying to blow up plays figuring that the defense overall is strong enough that they don't need the risk of the splash play

In any case, for a top 10 LB, there better be more tackles for loss or at least tackles near the LOS. They could get a ton of guys to just drag down RBs after 4 yard gains

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

I also agree that Shazier was overrated. He was a good ILB and made plays, but he wasn't quite a dominant player yet. He was getting better but he still was not a dominant guy like Farrior was.

So, i do think Bush can fill Shazier's shoes but to me if his ceiling is what Shazier did, then Bush will be a bit of a disappointment. A top 10 LB should be a game changer.

I remember watching the 49ers when they had Willis and Bowman. They would just take over games vs the run and the pass. They owned the middle of the field.

 

[Mosh Pitt]

 

[slashsteel]

His ceiling is his own. And it is as far as he takes it. When you have someone with instincts, athleticism.speed, a want to, and a film study. You have a recipe for something special.


Bush played a ton of off the ball coverage and that is our teams greatest weakness.

So by all means (whomever-in general) hold onto that one or two game you think he didn't do well.That is a lot of assuming going on assessing it. You are assuming your tape watch is 100% accurate, you are assuming Bush topped out, you are assuming he won't get off blocks and be a playmaker.

We shall see how your assumptions unfold.

I am perfectly fine assuming the countless positives I have mentioned from this thread, and his draft thread that we have a player that is going to make the D better.


And that is the bottom line.

Cause stone old Slash says so.

 

[FordFairLane]

I don't know if you are talking a out a specific play, but it, certainly, does not mean that, in general. It could very well mean you had a specific assignment, someone else didn't carry out their's and now you are stuck chasing a guy down from behind.

The majority of the time if you are chasing the running back from behind you didn’t do your job. Yes, if it’s a blitz and you are supposed to rush the left side and it’s a run to the right side. Or if there’s an incorrect defensive play called and the mlb is covering the slot then yes it’s different. But 95% of the time if your MLB is running after the back it’s a bad play.

I tell my kids 2 yards or less is a positive play. 3-5 yards is a neutral play. Over 5 yards is a negative play for defense.




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[Vader]

His ceiling is his own. And it is as far as he takes it. When you have someone with instincts, athleticism.speed, a want to, and a film study. You have a recipe for something special.


Bush played a ton of off the ball coverage and that is our teams greatest weakness.

So by all means (whomever-in general) hold onto that one or two game you think he didn't do well.That is a lot of assuming going on assessing it. You are assuming your tape watch is 100% accurate, you are assuming Bush topped out, you are assuming he won't get off blocks and be a playmaker.

Cause stone old Slash says so.

Lots of this post is assumptions. It also wasn't 1 or 2 games. It was a pattern that many saw. Just go to youtube and you can watch other people break down his film. Some are former football players. Even those that love him say the same thing about his ability to read plays. They almost all say that he takes the first read and that he is often out of position because he is easily tricked by mis-direction. OSU probably saw his tape and they feasted at the table of Bush running the wrong way.

Also why doesn't Bush get the same treatment as Bama players? Maybe Michigan's defense was just that good in front of him? Since all Bama players suck because of the other players around them then why not apply the same standard? What if he is just the product of the system?

 

[Coryea]

I also agree that Shazier was overrated. He was a good ILB and made plays, but he wasn't quite a dominant player yet. He was getting better but he still was not a dominant guy like Farrior was.

So, i do think Bush can fill Shazier's shoes but to me if his ceiling is what Shazier did, then Bush will be a bit of a disappointment. A top 10 LB should be a game changer.

I remember watching the 49ers when they had Willis and Bowman. They would just take over games vs the run and the pass. They owned the middle of the field.

Shazier was only in his 3rd season as a starter when he got hurt, he was really coming on, he had 11 passes defensed in less than 12 games, 3 INT's, 3 FF's that season, he was really coming on and becoming a top ILB that took over games.

The easiest throw for a QB is in the middle because it's the shortest throw, as opposed to throwing outside, you have to have speed there, even if he Bush doesn't make every play, he's at least going to contest throws and force QB's to make throws into smaller windows. You can't disguise anything without a 3 down ILB, you bring Fort in or a S hybrid the other team knows we are playing pass, you bring in Williams and Bostic, SD throws over the middle 20 times.

 

[slashsteel]

Lots of this post is assumptions. It also wasn't 1 or 2 games. It was a pattern that many saw. Just go to youtube and you can watch other people break down his film. Some are former football players. Even those that love him say the same thing about his ability to read plays. They almost all say that he takes the first read and that he is often out of position because he is easily tricked by mis-direction. OSU probably saw his tape and they feasted at the table of Bush running the wrong way.

Also why doesn't Bush get the same treatment as Bama players? Maybe Michigan's defense was just that good in front of him? Since all Bama players suck because of the other players around them then why not apply the same standard? What if he is just the product of the system?

All your concerns will be answered by his play. You think it is a pattern, I don't. And I have watched his game tapes as well....

So we will see.

Are you hoping I am right or you are right?

What ILBer did you want more?

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Shazier was only in his 3rd season as a starter when he got hurt, he was really coming on, he had 11 passes defensed in less than 12 games, 3 INT's, 3 FF's that season, he was really coming on and becoming a top ILB that took over games.

The easiest throw for a QB is in the middle because it's the shortest throw, as opposed to throwing outside, you have to have speed there, even if he Bush doesn't make every play, he's at least going to contest throws and force QB's to make throws into smaller windows. You can't disguise anything without a 3 down ILB, you bring Fort in or a S hybrid the other team knows we are playing pass, you bring in Williams and Bostic, SD throws over the middle 20 times.

Shazier was on his way to be a star but he wasn’t quite there yet. He had more upside than Bush due to size.

Having a 3 down guy in the middle is important which makes it even more ridiculous that Shazier had no real backup and then last year they thought they could get by with Bostic.

It bothers me that the steelers allowed themselves to be put into a position where they had to trade up to get a guy because the hole was so big.

i’m worried that they will be in a similar spot next year with OLB and maybe Safety and TE.

They have only 1 proven OLB, Watt. Dupree has just been mediocre and he’ll be a free agent next year. What if Dupree or Watt got injured? Are they calling up James Harrison or Julius Peppers and begging them to un-retire?

Safety has zero proven players. Edmunds was OK as a rookie but still hasn’t proven he’s a solid starter. Same with Davis.

Dionte Johnson may be a good player but it was a very costly pick because it stopped the steelers from getting a safety and it pushed OLb and TE way down the board.

 

[Hines57]

Shazier was on his way to be a star but he wasn’t quite there yet. He had more upside than Bush due to size.

Having a 3 down guy in the middle is important which makes it even more ridiculous that Shazier had no real backup and then last year they thought they could get by with Bostic.

It bothers me that the steelers allowed themselves to be put into a position where they had to trade up to get a guy because the hole was so big.

i’m worried that they will be in a similar spot next year with OLB and maybe Safety and TE.

They have only 1 proven OLB, Watt. Dupree has just been mediocre and he’ll be a free agent next year. What if Dupree or Watt got injured? Are they calling up James Harrison or Julius Peppers and begging them to un-retire?

Safety has zero proven players. Edmunds was OK as a rookie but still hasn’t proven he’s a solid starter. Same with Davis.

Dionte Johnson may be a good player but it was a very costly pick because it stopped the steelers from getting a safety and it pushed OLb and TE way down the board.

All that said, they were a bad drop/ruling from having the #1 seed overall in the AFC without a backup for Shazier.

 

[ianv2012]

Shazier was on his way to be a star but he wasn’t quite there yet. He had more upside than Bush due to size.

Having a 3 down guy in the middle is important which makes it even more ridiculous that Shazier had no real backup and then last year they thought they could get by with Bostic.

It bothers me that the steelers allowed themselves to be put into a position where they had to trade up to get a guy because the hole was so big.

i’m worried that they will be in a similar spot next year with OLB and maybe Safety and TE.

They have only 1 proven OLB, Watt. Dupree has just been mediocre and he’ll be a free agent next year. What if Dupree or Watt got injured? Are they calling up James Harrison or Julius Peppers and begging them to un-retire?

Safety has zero proven players. Edmunds was OK as a rookie but still hasn’t proven he’s a solid starter. Same with Davis.

Dionte Johnson may be a good player but it was a very costly pick because it stopped the steelers from getting a safety and it pushed OLb and TE way down the board.

Combine Measurements:

Bush 5'11, 234 lbs

Shazier 6'1, 237

Without the exact height, at most shazier has 2 in and 3lbs on Bush, wouldn't say this proves shazier had better upside due to size. This argument is bunk, as Shazier's size was a "question mark" as well coming out, doesn't seem to be factor now since it fits the narrative you want to push. So you'll admit now you would be more confident about Bush's upside if he had just 2 in more in height and 3lbs in weight? Since both jumped over 40 in the vertical leap, I don't see those 2in. making a difference

 

[Scott109]

I know this is hard to believe but Shazier wasn't some great mythical ILB. He was a good one but not great and he sure as hell didn't do anything great in the playoffs.

Bengals playoff game: 9 tackles (next highest 4), 2 passes defended, 2 tackles for loss, 1 fumble recovery and 2 forced fumbles including the great strip of Jeremy Hill at the end.

 

[Stryker]

Bengals playoff game: 9 tackles (next highest 4), 2 passes defended, 2 tackles for loss, 1 fumble recovery and 2 forced fumbles including the great strip of Jeremy Hill at the end.

And would have had the TD if they didn't blow the play dead He knocked that RB into next week.

 

[Vader]

Bengals playoff game: 9 tackles (next highest 4), 2 passes defended, 2 tackles for loss, 1 fumble recovery and 2 forced fumbles including the great strip of Jeremy Hill at the end.

I stand corrected. He had one game. But I've been told one game doesn't matter so I'm still right.. right?

 

[Steelworth]

Bengals playoff game: 9 tackles (next highest 4), 2 passes defended, 2 tackles for loss, 1 fumble recovery and 2 forced fumbles including the great strip of Jeremy Hill at the end.

He also had an INT in both the Miami & KC games for the 2016 postseason.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Combine Measurements:

Bush 5'11, 234 lbs

Shazier 6'1, 237

Without the exact height, at most shazier has 2 in and 3lbs on Bush, wouldn't say this proves shazier had better upside due to size. This argument is bunk, as Shazier's size was a "question mark" as well coming out, doesn't seem to be factor now since it fits the narrative you want to push. So you'll admit now you would be more confident about Bush's upside if he had just 2 in more in height and 3lbs in weight? Since both jumped over 40 in the vertical leap, I don't see those 2in. making a difference

2 inches is very significant. Shazier also had a 42 vertical and his arms were a bit longer. That’s 4 to 5 more inches in coverage ability. Also Shazier ran faster in the 4.3 range.

Bigger + Faster = higher upside

 

[ark steel]

The majority of the time if you are chasing the running back from behind you didn’t do your job. Yes, if it’s a blitz and you are supposed to rush the left side and it’s a run to the right side. Or if there’s an incorrect defensive play called and the mlb is covering the slot then yes it’s different. But 95% of the time if your MLB is running after the back it’s a bad play.

I tell my kids 2 yards or less is a positive play. 3-5 yards is a neutral play. Over 5 yards is a negative play for defense.




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I can't imagine that "majority of the time" is accurate.

 

[FordFairLane]

I can't imagine that "majority of the time" is accurate.

Get a better imagination


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[deljzc]

I've been watching film of the CB we got, Justin Layne, and I really think that was a good pick. Maybe my only Grade A pick of the draft for me or one I'm excited about as far as value/risk/reward combination.

His Ohio State tape was very strong. Does a lot of good things. A very atypical Steeler CB pick to me because his strongest attribute is actually coverage. I've long felt the Steelers just get too enamored with the other aspects of a cornerback: splash plays, special teams, tackling, toughness that they kind of forget the number one purpose of a cornerback is to "cover" a guy long enough to make a play when a QB attempts a pass to the guy. I mean lord knows we've had plenty of good "tackling" cornerbacks come through our team that all fail because they can't cover worth a damn. And if I hear Tomlin promote a CB pick one more time because he makes "splash" plays in college, I'm going to throw up (like he did for that pipsqueak dude we picked in the 2nd round a few years ago).

Layne is a good coverage guy. He doesn't give up and gets his hands on a lot of balls. His length is exceptional.

Now there are some concerns in his game, don't get me wrong. He's not the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders or anything. He predominantly played boundary corner for MSU like two other highly touted prospects: Trae Waynes and Darqueze Dennard, that both didn't live up to their 1st round draft selections. When I scout predominantly boundary corners (guys that always or almost always line up on the short side of the hash marks/field) that can be a red flag. And one of those concerns I spotted in watching film: he can lose a guy on shimmer, shake, slant patterns to the middle of the field or he can get clutchy/grabby. On plays outside the hashmarks, he is very good. Very good. He has good hips. Trails well. Good enough speed. Has a nice feel for outside zone coverage and when to release guys to his safety help. He is okay at run support and coming downhill on plays in front of him. But man-under coverage is not always his best film and if he loses a guy early and they get inside him on slants and crosses, he loses the battle sometimes. That can be improved hopefully. His change of direct skills are good but being a tall CB he is always going to struggle at sinking his hips enough to protect the inside of the field in his backpeddle.

Again, like Gentry, I feel like Layne needs the right coaching mindset or he could get ****** up. If the coaches want him to be a 3rd string or 4th string corner and learn all the slot coverage playbook, I think he REALLY struggles and could lose a lot of his confidence. If the coaches realize his strengths and teach him only to be an outside the hashmarks defender, he could be really, really good for us.

Time will tell what the coaches do with him. Of all the picks, he's the one worth watching the most this camp/pre-season in my opinion because his upside to be a very good #1 or #2 corner is there but if they hang him out to dry expecting him to be a slot corner, he's going to fail and get down on himself. That would be bad.

 

[Steelworth]

I've been watching film of the CB we got, Justin Layne, and I really think that was a good pick. Maybe my only Grade A pick of the draft for me or one I'm excited about as far as value/risk/reward combination.

His Ohio State tape was very strong. Does a lot of good things. A very atypical Steeler CB pick to me because his strongest attribute is actually coverage. I've long felt the Steelers just get too enamored with the other aspects of a cornerback: splash plays, special teams, tackling, toughness that they kind of forget the number one purpose of a cornerback is to "cover" a guy long enough to make a play when a QB attempts a pass to the guy. I mean lord knows we've had plenty of good "tackling" cornerbacks come through our team that all fail because they can't cover worth a damn. And if I hear Tomlin promote a CB pick one more time because he makes "splash" plays in college, I'm going to throw up (like he did for that pipsqueak dude we picked in the 2nd round a few years ago).

Layne is a good coverage guy. He doesn't give up and gets his hands on a lot of balls. His length is exceptional.

Now there are some concerns in his game, don't get me wrong. He's not the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders or anything. He predominantly played boundary corner for MSU like two other highly touted prospects: Trae Waynes and Darqueze Dennard, that both didn't live up to their 1st round draft selections. When I scout predominantly boundary corners (guys that always or almost always line up on the short side of the hash marks/field) that can be a red flag. And one of those concerns I spotted in watching film: he can lose a guy on shimmer, shake, slant patterns to the middle of the field or he can get clutchy/grabby. On plays outside the hashmarks, he is very good. Very good. He has good hips. Trails well. Good enough speed. Has a nice feel for outside zone coverage and when to release guys to his safety help. He is okay at run support and coming downhill on plays in front of him. But man-under coverage is not always his best film and if he loses a guy early and they get inside him on slants and crosses, he loses the battle sometimes. That can be improved hopefully. His change of direct skills are good but being a tall CB he is always going to struggle at sinking his hips enough to protect the inside of the field in his backpeddle.

Again, like Gentry, I feel like Layne needs the right coaching mindset or he could get ****** up. If the coaches want him to be a 3rd string or 4th string corner and learn all the slot coverage playbook, I think he REALLY struggles and could lose a lot of his confidence. If the coaches realize his strengths and teach him only to be an outside the hashmarks defender, he could be really, really good for us.

Time will tell what the coaches do with him. Of all the picks, he's the one worth watching the most this camp/pre-season in my opinion because his upside to be a very good #1 or #2 corner is there but if they hang him out to dry expecting him to be a slot corner, he's going to fail and get down on himself. That would be bad.

Great insight & analysis. Would you mind giving a quick review of all the draft picks and what you think of them?

 

[deljzc]

Great insight & analysis. Would you mind giving a quick review of all the draft picks and what you think of them?

I don't want to take over Fairlane's thread but this is the only spot to talk about all the picks in one place so I'll respond to this a bit.

First, I did make a quick analysis of Bush back on Post #57 of this thread. I like Bush, but I think in normal years, he's a #15-#25 type pick. Nothing really wowed me on film and for being the highest pick this organization has make since Roethlisberger, I'm not really convinced he's that much of a game changer. Unfortunately for us, we had a huge need at the position and there was competition for the position, so Bush (and so with Devin White as well) got pushed up a bit higher than their talent level indicates. I just watched some film on Devin White and I do think he's better than Bush but he's not a top-5 guy to me either. More like top-15. Maybe that's just the way this draft was. Deep but not a lot of elite talents, but if you pick an ILB in the top-10, I normally like a pretty special guy. Willis/Kuechley good.

I do not like the Diontae Johnson pick. Now when we hit on WR's (and Colbert has hit on WR more than any other position), it's normally a home run but we've had some failures in this position as well. He looks too forced to be an Antonio Brown clone to me, which makes me question the evaluation process. Is the coaching staff/GM projecting what they WANT onto him rather that what he really is. I also get a bit skeptical when the Steelers justify a pick in the top-3 or 4 rounds with "special teams contributions". That's code that they already have doubts about his WR ability and was not the best WR on their board but special teams "versatility" pushed him up, which I don't like.

I will say this about Johnson, his quicks are good. And supposedly his production in 2017 was great and his QB play last year was atrocious so the 2018 film I've watched might not be correct and the Steelers found a sleeper based on 2017 tape and good work. There are lot of similarities to Brown on film. Same body control. Same stop/start ability. But Brown was an exception, not a rule. Top of the third round seems awfully high for that type of risk to me from a small school without exceptional testing scores, but we shall see.

 

[slashsteel]

I don't want to take over Fairlane's thread but this is the only spot to talk about all the picks in one place so I'll respond to this a bit.

First, I did make a quick analysis of Bush back on Post #57 of this thread. I like Bush, but I think in normal years, he's a #15-#25 type pick. Nothing really wowed me on film and for being the highest pick this organization has make since Roethlisberger, I'm not really convinced he's that much of a game changer. Unfortunately for us, we had a huge need at the position and there was competition for the position, so Bush (and so with Devin White as well) got pushed up a bit higher than their talent level indicates. I just watched some film on Devin White and I do think he's better than Bush but he's not a top-5 guy to me either. More like top-15. Maybe that's just the way this draft was. Deep but not a lot of elite talents, but if you pick an ILB in the top-10, I normally like a pretty special guy. Willis/Kuechley good.

I do not like the Diontae Johnson pick. Now when we hit on WR's (and Colbert has hit on WR more than any other position), it's normally a home run but we've had some failures in this position as well. He looks too forced to be an Antonio Brown clone to me, which makes me question the evaluation process. Is the coaching staff/GM projecting what they WANT onto him rather that what he really is. I also get a bit skeptical when the Steelers justify a pick in the top-3 or 4 rounds with "special teams contributions". That's code that they already have doubts about his WR ability and was not the best WR on their board but special teams "versatility" pushed him up, which I don't like.

I will say this about Johnson, his quicks are good. And supposedly his production in 2017 was great and his QB play last year was atrocious so the 2018 film I've watched might not be correct and the Steelers found a sleeper based on 2017 tape and good work. There are lot of similarities to Brown on film. Same body control. Same stop/start ability. But Brown was an exception, not a rule. Top of the third round seems awfully high for that type of risk to me from a small school without exceptional testing scores, but we shall see.

Fair and objective. I am not sure we are looking at any stars either. Who knows. But sometimes positional upgrades can be enough. And in this case a need was filled that wouldn't have been arguably otherwise as far as ILBer goes.

As far as DJ goes he could be somewhere in between Sanders and Ted Ginn. Or better or worse.. I could also see where fans wonder if they just tried to clone AB, over BPA. I will glue to Butler VS DJ on a comparison as their careers move forward.

And I always love your work Del, thanks for the looks.....................

 

[Litos]

Fair and objective. I am not sure we are looking at any stars either. Who knows. But sometimes positional upgrades can be enough. And in this case a need was filled that wouldn't have been arguably otherwise as far as ILBer goes.

As far as DJ goes he could be somewhere in between Sanders and Ted Ginn. Or better or worse.. I could also see where fans wonder if they just tried to clone AB, over BPA. I will glue to Butler VS DJ on a comparison as their careers move forward.

And I always love your work Del, thanks for the looks.....................

maybe he becomes like Santonio Holmes

 

[slashsteel]

maybe he becomes like Santonio Holmes

That would be good too. Santonio was so special in that SB, he had that will to be great. to be special. I wouldn't mind a Santonio Holmes clone at all.

 

[Steelworth]

Great Del, thank you for taking the time.