Tomlin....he's driving a proud organization straight in to the ground.

[Supersteeler]

Don't get made at fans who haven't made peace with mediocrity like you. It's not about going to the Superbiwl every year.

I'm not mad at anyone. Just giving my opinion in general. When you have mediocre players, you have a mediocre team. You'll get no argument from me that the drafting hasn't been as good overall in the past few years. That said Colbert certainly hasn't mysteriously gotten stupid or developed Alzheimer's to my knowledge, so logic would say it will get better. He was always considered one of the very best in the game at drafting. He's found a few gems in the past drafts, just not as many overall as before. I think that will come back around too.

The biggest mistake they made by far is letting all the veterans get too old without finding acceptable replacements soon enough. They've begun rectifying it but they should have done it 3 years ago when they saw their formerly great veteran guys declining. I think it was out of loyalty that they were running guys out there past their primes when they should have been finding and developing young talent. They are still paying for it right now.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

I'm not mad at anyone. Just giving my opinion in general. When you have mediocre players, you have a mediocre team.

more for Bermuda.

 

[Vader]

Seriously 1%? That's ridiculous. The HC for the Steelers is at least an equal partner with Colbert in drafting and signing players. Also Noll was not a rah rah guy. Belicheat is sure as hell not a rah rah guy. He is a coach. If that were all that was necessary for a HC then teams would hire motivational speakers for HC positions but they don't. And they don't for a reason. They need someone with football acumen and the ability to put together a football plan for their team's strengths. Everybody blasted Cowher, even within the past week, for playing Martyball. Well how in the hell does that happen if Cowher was just a rah rah guy? Wouldn't his OC be the Martyballer? Nope. Because the HC works with his OC and DC to put his stamp on the team. Which is why a few years ago Rooney went to Tomlin and told him to get the running game going. He didn't go to Arians. He went to the guy responsible for the offense.

Oh I need to add to this ridiculous story. Most of those injured guys never amounted to anything. Curtis Brown, Plexico, Justin Cheadle, Nik Embernate etc... aren't good players. So them getting hurt didn't hurt the Steelers that much at all. Also it again discounts injuries from other teams. GB was decimated with injuries when they beat the Steelers in the SB. But nobody cared.

 

[Omar10213245]

Seriously 1%? That's ridiculous. The HC for the Steelers is at least an equal partner with Colbert in drafting and signing players. Also Noll was not a rah rah guy. Belicheat is sure as hell not a rah rah guy. He is a coach. If that were all that was necessary for a HC then teams would hire motivational speakers for HC positions but they don't. And they don't for a reason. They need someone with football acumen and the ability to put together a football plan for their team's strengths. Everybody blasted Cowher, even within the past week, for playing Martyball. Well how in the hell does that happen if Cowher was just a rah rah guy? Wouldn't his OC be the Martyballer? Nope. Because the HC works with his OC and DC to put his stamp on the team. Which is why a few years ago Rooney went to Tomlin and told him to get the running game going. He didn't go to Arians. He went to the guy responsible for the offense.

Oh I need to add to this ridiculous story. Most of those injured guys never amounted to anything. Curtis Brown, Plexico, Justin Cheadle, Nik Embernate etc... aren't good players. So them getting hurt didn't hurt the Steelers that much at all. Also it again discounts injuries from other teams. GB was decimated with injuries when they beat the Steelers in the SB. But nobody cared.

This right here. I'd give rep, but I must spread it around first

 

[slashsteel]

I agree, those are all definite problems. Now let's look at what a Head Coach can do to fix it.

1) Playing down to the competition which screams unfocused = Better Pep Talks leading up to the game
2) Mass of Penalties which screams undisciplined = Better Pep Talks during the game
3) Lack of Half time adjustments which screams lack of X's and O's = Coordinators are the X's and O's guys. The Head Coach typically doesn't deal much in them. However, he CAN give....Better Pep Talks at Halftime.

This is exactly my point about a Head Coach being a figurehead. Vastly overrated in the grand scheme of winning and losing. Pep talks are great for high school kids. Even by the time they hit college, players have pretty much started to tune them out, let alone guys in their late 20's and early 30's.

Unfocused and Undisciplined players are the cause of being unfocused and undisciplined. You need team leaders to set the example of how to go to work every day and how it's done. A coach can yell and scream about it all he wants but it won't do dick if there is nobody in uniform to reinforce it and push other guys to do it. It would have a much greater effect on the team if guys like Ben and Antonio berated everyone in the locker room to get their **** together like a Bettis or Ward would do in years past. I just don't know if Ben and Antonio are those kinds of leaders.

A leader in life is responsible for their team/ unit whatever. Players do not motivate themselves as a whole, do not work together as a team as a whole. Coordinators do not have the last say the coach does. He has the ability to override, and tweak.

I am not sure what made you ingrain within your mind that head coaches are not that important. As the test of time has shown different.

Jimmy Johnson, Bill Bellycheat for how much I detest him, Noll who inherited a bottom feeding team, etc. and now the seahags have turned their fortune around thanks to solid coaching.

I do not feel the Steelers should win every SB. I do feel three years of not making the playoffs would be simply not good enough.

Mediocrity as I agree with a lot of what Vadar says, only gets a rebuilding pass for so long.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Listen I'm not saying Tomlin is a fantastic coach. Here is what I believe and what I have always believed about football. Head Coach is by far the most overrated position on any team when it comes to wins and loses. The Head Coach is the "pep talk" guy, he's the figurehead. He doesn't run the offensive or defensive schemes in almost all situations. The Coordinators do that. Granted he will give suggestions on what he wants done, but as far as the nuts and bolts of scheme and play calling, he hires guys to do that part. Anyone who has ever played football knows that the Head Coach is the "rah rah" guy who basically gives the Pre and Post Game pep talks and has to talk to the media. In practice he walks around and "oversees" the other coaches while they actually coach the players and maybe barks something out once in awhile.

Players, the GM and the Coordinators account for about 99% of whether and team wins and the Head Coach is about 1%. Again it's just my opinion but that's why I never have had the urge to get involved in "this or that coach needs to be fired immediately" talk. Sign a couple of top notch free agents and draft a couple stud players and watch how much smarter the Head Coach gets by doing essentially nothing different than he ever has before. All of a sudden people love the coach again and he's a genius. If you have the horses, the Head Coach wins and is a genius, if you have **** players, he's a dunce and needs fired. A bad coach will win with great players. The greatest coach in the world will lose with **** players. End of story. It makes me laugh when people get so upset at a Head Coach and believe he is the primary reason a team wins or loses.

His effect is miniscule in the scheme of things. The Head Coach's largest effect on a team is at a podium on press conference day.

****.

Why even have a head coach, let alone pay him millions of dollars, if his impact on his team is so minuscule?

You want to relegate 99% of the responsible to the assistants, players and GMs, as if the head coach has no consequential influence on personnel and schematic decisions.

I mean, wow. Just wow.

 

[freak]

Listen I'm not saying Tomlin is a fantastic coach. Here is what I believe and what I have always believed about football. Head Coach is by far the most overrated position on any team when it comes to wins and loses. The Head Coach is the "pep talk" guy, he's the figurehead. He doesn't run the offensive or defensive schemes in almost all situations. The Coordinators do that. Granted he will give suggestions on what he wants done, but as far as the nuts and bolts of scheme and play calling, he hires guys to do that part. Anyone who has ever played football knows that the Head Coach is the "rah rah" guy who basically gives the Pre and Post Game pep talks and has to talk to the media. In practice he walks around and "oversees" the other coaches while they actually coach the players and maybe barks something out once in awhile.

Players, the GM and the Coordinators account for about 99% of whether and team wins and the Head Coach is about 1%. Again it's just my opinion but that's why I never have had the urge to get involved in "this or that coach needs to be fired immediately" talk. Sign a couple of top notch free agents and draft a couple stud players and watch how much smarter the Head Coach gets by doing essentially nothing different than he ever has before. All of a sudden people love the coach again and he's a genius. If you have the horses, the Head Coach wins and is a genius, if you have **** players, he's a dunce and needs fired. A bad coach will win with great players. The greatest coach in the world will lose with **** players. End of story. It makes me laugh when people get so upset at a Head Coach and believe he is the primary reason a team wins or loses.

His effect is miniscule in the scheme of things. The Head Coach's largest effect on a team is at a podium on press conference day.

i agree in part of this , to me what you are saying is the exactly condition we have now with tomlin .. but real head coach are complete other things in good and bad way

 

[Supersteeler]

****.

Why even have a head coach, let alone pay him millions of dollars, if his impact on his team is so minuscule?

You want to relegate 99% of the responsible to the assistants, players and GMs, as if the head coach has no consequential influence on personnel and schematic decisions.

I mean, wow. Just wow.

Why do they make millions? Mostly because he's the face of the team and he's viewed as responsible for wins and losses...i.e. it goes on his coaching record, whether he had much hand in it or not. They also have to answer the tough questions from the media every week. That's why they get the big bucks. He does put his stamp on everything team related, he just doesn't develop much of it. You don't like miniscule to describe a Head Coach's impact. How about "Very Little"?

 

[slashsteel]

so the head coach is there just to deal with the media?

lulz


if you are not trolling

you should be

 

[Stryker]

A pep talk is like a blow job.

They're fun to get while they're happening.

Afterward, you kind of lose interest in the person that did the work...

In game, a HC has about a 10% effect on the outcome. In a league where the talent is spread out and is fairly evenly distributed (as we have), that 10% can mean the difference between winning and losing a close game.

I think the percentage during the week and offseason is closer to Vader's projections. The HC, hires the coaching staff and training staff based on their resume and football philosophy. He aids in player evaluation for FAs and potential draft picks. During the weeks, he helps to implement a game plan and makes sure his coaches are pushing the finer points during practice. During a game, he should be able to give advice and direction to the coaches to make adjustments, as well as coach up players personal performances during the game.

The coach is more important during the week and offseason than during a game, where his priority should be game management.

 

[Punxsutawney]

Why do they make millions? Mostly because he's the face of the team and he's viewed as responsible for wins and losses...i.e. it goes on his coaching record, whether he had much hand in it or not. They also have to answer the tough questions from the media every week. That's why they get the big bucks. He does put his stamp on everything team related, he just doesn't develop much of it. You don't like miniscule to describe a Head Coach's impact. How about "Very Little"?

I think you're still understating it.

You want to simply reduce the head coach to some public relations executive operating on the field level. I have no clue how you got this impression

If you honestly believe that every significant decision pertaining to on field performance is not subject to either the direct consent or strong input from effectively the CEO coach, I seriously do not know what to tell you.

There are numerous examples of coaches making a big difference, for better or worse, with basically the same roster their predecessor had, with Jim Harbaugh taking Mike Singletary's 49ers to three consecutive NFCC games being a prominent example.

 

[Punxsutawney]

The coach is more important during the week and offseason than during a game, where his priority should be game management.

Exactly.

The head coach is ultimately the one signing off on the active rosters and game plans.

To absolve him from blame simply because he is not the one directly calling and running the plays makes little sense to me.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

Exactly.

The head coach is ultimately the one signing off on the active rosters and game plans.

To absolve him from blame simply because he is not the one directly calling and running the plays makes little sense to me.

Or to deny him credit ... right?

 

[Punxsutawney]

Or to deny him credit ... right?

Credit?

They've been 8-8 in consecutive years coming off an epic bitchslapping by Tim "He's so good he could not be possibly out of the league a few years from now" Tebow, and we're supposed to apply credit?

Credit for suckitude, I assume?

 

[Supersteeler]

Credit?

They've been 8-8 in consecutive years coming off an epic bitchslapping by Tim "He's so good he could not be possibly out of the league a few years from now" Tebow, and we're supposed to apply credit?

Credit for suckitude, I assume?

This is what it boils down to with the responses of people here that take offense with my opinion that Head Coaches have little effect on the outcome of games. It's because of the thought that if that theory is reality, it kind of let's Tomlin off the hook a little and apparently that is unacceptable and infuriating. When in reality I have zero interest in that train of thought whatsoever. Tomlin is as interchangeable as any other coach in the league IMO. Put Bill "The Genius" Belicheck at the head of this team, we are still 2-1 with very little change in the outcome. Just my 2 cents. But I can assure you this is not some backhanded compliment to boost up Tomlin.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

Credit?

They've been 8-8 in consecutive years coming off an epic bitchslapping by Tim "He's so good he could not be possibly out of the league a few years from now" Tebow, and we're supposed to apply credit?

Credit for suckitude, I assume?

Do you give Cowher credit for his body of work? What about the losing seasons?

And the failure to procure a decent QB doesn't make him a martyr, it makes him stupid at worse, negligent at best. And before anyone asks what good QB was on the market when Cowher chose not to get one ... Jeff George was available several times. Might not have been a good fit attitude wise ... but then "Coach Discipline" should have been able to handle that, since I've heard so often that was one of his strong points. Nope, Cowher "CHOSE" to go with retreads and never weres at QB, and that was a failing on his part. Dare we say, he wasted the good years of a total team by not addressing its weakness.

Tomlin. Yeah, he's gave us two 8-8 seasons. I count those as a grey mark on his record. And ultimately, he's responsible for how his team performs. However, it's just asinine to cut the guy down for his failures and then when he has the team at a winning record point to those same failures again as a reason to deny credit. I like where this team is at right now (2-1). I will not like where they are at tomorrow if they lose. Should that happen, I will say that the ULTIMATE responsibility lies with Tomlin (but I won't overlook the contributions of the OC, DC and players). Should they win I will say that the ULTIMATE responsibility lies with Tomlin (but I won't overlook the contributions of the OC, DC and Players).

But hey, you continue with the nice pithy "well thought out" answers.

 

[Supersteeler]

If I had to rank in order, an organization's personnel that most determine the team's wins and losses, I would go 1) Players 2 )Scouting dept./G.M. 3) Offensive and Defensive Coordinator 4) All Position Coaches, 5) Head Coach

 

[Vader]

If I had to rank in order, an organization's personnel that most determine the team's wins and losses, I would go 1) Players 2 )Scouting dept./G.M. 3) Offensive and Defensive Coordinator 4) All Position Coaches, 5) Head Coach

Sorry but your Tomlin excuses are just too much. If the Steelers really believed that then they wouldn't pay Tomlin millions of dollars while paying scouts and everyone else much less. Also your list nicely breaks up everything so you can excuse Tomlin of any responsibility for drafting as well. Tomlin has a ton of input on every drafted player. But you absolve him of that by breaking everything into a nice neat package.

 

[Idioteque]

Sorry but your Tomlin excuses are just too much. If the Steelers really believed that then they wouldn't pay Tomlin millions of dollars while paying scouts and everyone else much less. Also your list nicely breaks up everything so you can excuse Tomlin of any responsibility for drafting as well. Tomlin has a ton of input on every drafted player. But you absolve him of that by breaking everything into a nice neat package.

He's the PR man, dontcha know. He was only hired to give press conferences.

These are the opinions you get from those who don't pay attention

 

[Supersteeler]

Sorry but your Tomlin excuses are just too much. If the Steelers really believed that then they wouldn't pay Tomlin millions of dollars while paying scouts and everyone else much less. Also your list nicely breaks up everything so you can excuse Tomlin of any responsibility for drafting as well. Tomlin has a ton of input on every drafted player. But you absolve him of that by breaking everything into a nice neat package.

Lol, thank you for proving my point exactly. You ******* are so up in arms over Tomlin you can't get it through your thick skulls that it has nothing to do with Tomlin. That is 95% of the Head Coaches in America. You can't even think about it rationally because you want him gone so bad it's clouding your judgement. Guess what? I used to make the same ******* argument 15 years ago on here when people wanted Cowher's head on a platter. I just said like 4 posts ago that I don't think Tomlin is a great coach. Goddamn you people have a one track mind when you get a bug up your *** about something.

 

[Vader]

Lol, thank you for proving my point exactly. You ******* are so up in arms over Tomlin you can't get it through your thick skulls that it has nothing to do with Tomlin. That is 95% of the Head Coaches in America. You can't even think about it rationally because you want him gone so bad it's clouding your judgement.

And here we go with the insults. This is my point exactly. You guys can't judge football, coaches or players because you are always trying to find excuses for your God Tomlin. It blurs everything you do or think about. I'd say the same thing about any coach. I've never called for Tomlin to be fired... never. But in your "protect Tomlin at all costs" world that's all you have is excuses. Excuses that you'd never give for another coach. I know this because you still deride other coaches in the league which you wouldn't do if you really believed what you said.

That's why you separate the duties out. You don't want Tomlin responsible for anything so you put everything on the GM even though Tomlin has a ton of input on all player decisions. I understand you can't talk rationally about this because you are so heavily invested so you go to the old stand by of insults and attacks.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

Never seen so much angst over a coach who has his team at a winning record (even if it's early) ... You would think that some of y'all would enjoy last week's win a lil more. Since according to you there won't be many more.

 

[Supersteeler]

He's the PR man, dontcha know. He was only hired to give press conferences.

These are the opinions you get from those who don't pay attention

Oh please, if Vader said it was going to rain T Bone steaks you'd be following right behind him with a knife and the A1 sauce.

 

[Vader]

Oh please, if Vader said it was going to rain T Bone steaks you'd be following right behind him with a knife and the A1 sauce.

Yup more attacks and insults. That's all you and your ilk have.

 

[Supersteeler]

And here we go with the insults. This is my point exactly. You guys can't judge football, coaches or players because you are always trying to find excuses for your God Tomlin. It blurs everything you do or think about. I'd say the same thing about any coach. I've never called for Tomlin to be fired... never. But in your "protect Tomlin at all costs" world that's all you have is excuses. Excuses that you'd never give for another coach. I know this because you still deride other coaches in the league which you wouldn't do if you really believed what you said.

That's why you separate the duties out. You don't want Tomlin responsible for anything so you put everything on the GM even though Tomlin has a ton of input on all player decisions. I understand you can't talk rationally about this because you are so heavily invested so you go to the old stand by of insults and attacks.

You are delusional. First of all if you are insulted because I said "You *******" you are pathetic. Second of all I just said earlier in this thread that I don't think all that much of Tomlin one way or another. Your judgement is completely clouded by your hate. And your reading comprehension stinks. Oh drat, I've probably insulted you again. Sorry.